The old system just seems like micro managing to me. More suitable for power hungry GMs. Guilds should be more intimate and based more around trust. Communities are the way of the future for the pug community.
Its not a about a power trip.
Basically guilds are built on tier reward system.
Examples: New Users>Steady players>Sometime Raiders>Constant Raiders>Officers>GMs
A new user is new so you wouldn't necessarily give them full access to your bank and permission to overwrite other peoples notes.
Steady Players would appreciate being able to invite their alts and friends into the guild even if they never will raid.
While a sometimes raider / raider would probably appreciate getting more gold from the guild bank for repairs since they spend so much trying the harder content.
Officers of course spend time and effort making sure everyone else is helped and the guild rules are followed so they have the most access.
Again its a reward based system and sure some people can be abusive but those guilds die fast, the worthwhile guilds give rewards for attendance, participation, loyalty so on.
Also having a calendar of events that someone will host helps a lot and being able to know for a fact that as a guildmate you have priority over a pug or friend of a friend of a friend means a lot too.
You can see it how you want but the reality is a good guild keeps the game strong and new players coming back for more. Communities are great but without someone willing to put the effort into them to make them strong and keep them going they would fall apart as well. So consider the ones that will be willing to do that would be people who are already doing it in their own guild structure.
The old system just seems like micro managing to me. More suitable for power hungry GMs. Guilds should be more intimate and based more around trust. Communities are the way of the future for the pug community.
The issue here is loss of option, and lack of communication.
You say that guilds should be intimate and based around trust. I don't think rank permissions have anything to do with being intimate with your guild. I ran a guild on Deathwing that followed the "Trust everyone until a reason is given not to" mantra. Have you ever had a player decide to destroy a guild from the inside out? Banks emptied? Players Kicked?
Trust is earned and grown, not given and spontaneous. Ranks and granular controls prevent people from doing malicious things, and if you've been a a guild that abuses power, find a better one, or better yet build one yourself.
This is why guild bank permissions have not changed and still allow pick-and-choose granularity for access. There's no reason that guild permissions should have been changed. It's broken long-standing structured groups.
The old system just seems like micro managing to me. More suitable for power hungry GMs. Guilds should be more intimate and based more around trust.
The nice thing about the old system is you can create that kind of guild if you wanted. It gave you the option to.
Communities are the way of the future for the pug community.
We are talking about guilds, right?
The old system just seems like micro managing to me. More suitable for power hungry GMs. Guilds should be more intimate and based more around trust. Communities are the way of the future for the pug community.
Dude power hungry gm's don't care what the permission system is like they are GM's they already have all the power regardless of what they can permit to other people. It's the non hungry GM's that care about this. How is someone supposed to earn trust if we can't offer them the opportunity to earn it progressively. How is it fair to the higher ranking assistant Gm's and officers that someone 2 ranks below them has the same permissions they do because they are all consolidated under 1 check box. There are people I would trust with certain responsibilities and not others. That isn't because i'm power hungry yet but it's because I am skeptical of people because I have been a GM long enough to know giving people too much power with 1 click can blow in your face quick.
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The old system just seems like micro managing to me. More suitable for power hungry GMs. Guilds should be more intimate and based more around trust. Communities are the way of the future for the pug community.
Dude power hungry gm's don't care what the permission system is like they are GM's they already have all the power regardless of what they can permit to other people. It's the non hungry GM's that care about this. How is someone supposed to earn trust if we can't offer them the opportunity to earn it progressively. How is it fair to the higher ranking assistant Gm's and officers that someone 2 ranks below them has the same permissions they do because they are all consolidated under 1 check box. There are people I would trust with certain responsibilities and not others. That isn't because i'm power hungry yet but it's because I am skeptical of people because I have been a GM long enough to know giving people too much power with 1 click can blow in your face quick.
Agreed.
In other words Blizzard please revert the permission changes you are hurting guilds that have been established for over 8 years. I understand you want to add something new but can't this be done without damaging what is already present? How about you establish permissions for communities that meld into guilds but using a different panel. Leave the guild permissions specifically controlling guilds in the old guild ui.
07/28/2018 04:00 AMPosted by
Dimsum
Blizzards ultimate plan.
UNIX permissions as guild permissions model.
Sticky bits included!
Actually I would be fine with Unix style permissions. The thing is Blizzard went the opposite direction of UNIX style permissions essentially placing all users in to one of three categories GM (Charter holder) IsOfficer==true and IsOfficer==false. Notes and channel controls and guild bank permissions based on rank are out the window.
And yes I would gladly advocate for a UNIX set of granular permissions (just without the clunky cd ./SharedFiles > sudo chmod 0775 SharedFile syntax plx) Having the ability to assign rights at the File Owner, Group, and Everyone Else level of granularity would suit me just fine.
The old system just seems like micro managing to me. More suitable for power hungry GMs. Guilds should be more intimate and based more around trust. Communities are the way of the future for the pug community.
"pug community"... Guilds != pugs. Respectfully, not the same thing at all. It isn't about micro-managing. When you have nearly 1000 members, trusting everyone with everything isn't an option. Bank, invites, kicks, calendar... It just isn't reasonable.
Yes please fix this. Having just two levels of permissions for guilds is rather incomplete and very difficult to manage.
Blizzard: You know it's
BAD when
Grumbles isn't even putting out cookies in the thread.
Fix this so we can have our cookies!
The old system just seems like micro managing to me. More suitable for power hungry GMs. Guilds should be more intimate and based more around trust. Communities are the way of the future for the pug community.
Communities may indeed be the way of the future for pugs. But Communities are not guilds. Guilds have different needs than do Communities and the conversation at hand is about guilds.
The old system was indeed a management system for the guild (far from creating micro managers (you generally bring that to the table with you when you join a guild)) it allowed Guild Masters the fine grained control necessary to assign specific guild ranks precise duties and the tools necessary to perform specific functions within the guild. It followed the Principle of Least Privilege (which if you have read this thread you have seen some of us myself included nearly write dissertations on why that kind of control is necessary) which was a good thing and made our job easier. The new changes to permissions have caused vast problems for GM's which, given the current state of guilds across the gamut in Azeroth, is the one thing that should not have been caused. The last thing on earth a guild master needed right now was for Blizzard to CAUSE problems for them.
The absolute best thing that can be done is for Blizzard to see this thread acknowledge the issue as an issue and put it on the priority list of items to hotfix asap. Anything less is frankly not acceptable and will cause an increased risk of guilds disbanding and subscribers and token purchaser to simply walk away.
The old system just seems like micro managing to me. More suitable for power hungry GMs. Guilds should be more intimate and based more around trust. Communities are the way of the future for the pug community.
Communities may indeed be the way of the future for pugs. But Communities are not guilds. Guilds have different needs than do Communities and the conversation at hand is about guilds.
The old system was indeed a management system for the guild (far from creating micro managers (you generally bring that to the table with you when you join a guild)) it allowed Guild Masters the fine grained control necessary to assign specific guild ranks precise duties and the tools necessary to perform specific functions within the guild. It followed the Principle of Least Privilege (which if you have read this thread you have seen some of us myself included nearly write dissertations on why that kind of control is necessary) which was a good thing and made our job easier. The new changes to permissions have caused vast problems for GM's which, given the current state of guilds across the gamut in Azeroth, is the one thing that should not have been caused. The last thing on earth a guild master needed right now was for Blizzard to CAUSE problems for them.
The absolute best thing that can be done is for Blizzard to see this thread acknowledge the issue as an issue and put it on the priority list of items to hotfix asap. Anything less is frankly not acceptable and will cause an increased risk of guilds disbanding and subscribers and token purchaser to simply walk away.
Agreed.
Please revert the permission change.
The Community Ui can stay the way it is until 8.1 or whatever is the next patch however the permissions for guild management need to be reverted before guilds start to break apart and people lose interest in the game again due to an unneeded change.
Blizzard you guys did great with Legion please I don't want to see another loss of subscribers (friends not playing) over something so easy to fix. It might not seem like a lot of people effected but there are plenty who haven't even realized this is an issue yet and when they do they might not come back for BFA.
Daily bump
At this point i have run out of inspiring things to say, i don't care if they fix/revert/improve it i just want something done.
I'm not angry blizzard, I'm just disappointed...
I want to bump this topic, too.
I am personally most frustrated with how non-officers can longer change their guild note. This all-or-nothing rank style is beyond upsetting in quite a few instances.
Just finished our guild planning session for BFA. This directly impacted our planning for ranks although bank permissions seem to still be intact which was a bonus. One of several issues that popped up was the inability delegate who can create guild events on the calendar along with some issues about voice channels and communities tying back to the guild.
I am thinking back to the Blizzcon 2017 systems panel where the changes were first covered by Matt Goss. I was really excited at the time because I thought the new system would bring enhancements and greater functionality to the guild system instead of stripping away what little, old functionality we had at the time.
Here's to you old guild system!
/libation
Hopefully we'll see some innovation spring from this opportunity.
My GM is getting very frustrated with the Event creation system as it currently is.
If the GM wants to create an event that will be of interest to a specific subset of the guild, she can no longer easily do that, because the options for creating and inviting to events is, improbably, far more clunky and difficult than it was prior to the changes. They can only be invited by the currently available ranks which means going in and hand-deleting, one at a time, those characters that will not be interested in that event. Its that much more difficult to see, at a glance, who is coming and who isn't. Not mention the previously spoken-of tedium of setting it up in the first place.
Why in heavens name, did something that worked fine for so long, have to be screwed up so very royally?
This really needs to be corrected by Tuesday.
It'll be TWO WEEKS at that point we've been dealing with this mess....
Learn from this, Blizzard. STOP RUSHING CRAP LIKE THIS LIVE!
Especially when you don't seem to have the resourses to FIX IT once you do!
Terrible change blizz. We need more options, not less.
I would like this changed back as well to individual assignment of permissions instead of a bulk officer perms.
I'm also really sad to see that in a warcraft community you have the option to btag friend add someone by right clicking but this feature has been taken away in guilds.
Adding my bump for the day.
Can we please get some sort of response Blizz?