The new Guild UI and Permissions...yikes (Part 1)

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

Here is a brilliant Lovecraft parody from October that I can’t resist quoting:

To whom it may concern:

As it is apparent that some enterprising individual, employed in some capacity at Blizzard Entertainment, has spent copious quantities of their personal effort perusing the works and passions of Lovecraft, one may assume, potentially erroneously, that it is possible the culture therein is spurred forward by ideologies expressed with extreme verbosity. If this does in fact prove to be the case, then I must forthwith pursue an argument that belies not just my erstwhile passions, but also those that cling to my bosom even into today. To that end, I must entreat the patience of my dear reader in the event that I fail to appeal adequately to a sense of curiosity and shared interests.

If I may presume to assume, however briefly, that my own motives and ambitions are broadly shared by the stalwart denizens of this thread, it is not remotely unusual that those of us who have undertaken leadership roles within our guilds continue to pursue our shared hobby for the purpose of furthering our respective communities and engaging in the casual socialization frequently enjoyed by close friends who have been acquainted with each other for many years. Furthermore, I do not believe I am alone in hearing from the members of my personal social circle that the only reason said members continue to engage in our shared hobby is precisely because of the social interactions provided by our little community. Therefore, I, as have seemingly many others, come to to the inescapable conclusion that our humble little guilds have over the years coalesced into a structure resembling the anatomical function of a spine, capable of bearing the strain of disagreement over the philosophies guiding the design decision making, and ensuring that players remain engaged and entertained regardless of the current status of the actual game. For myself, I can most firmly attest that the strength of my social bonds have carried more weight than my dissatisfaction with certain decisions of a design nature at crucial moments in the history of this game’s development.

Given that our humble guilds have, via whatever meandering path, ended up in such a pivotal role in ensuring the ongoing health and success of our shared hobby, it is at best illogical, and at worst insidious, to undermine such institutions and detract from their capacity to adequately fulfill their designated role of community building. Despite this rather obvious line of logic, it does appear that Blizzard Entertainment is either entirely oblivious or possibly uncaring of the undue burden placed upon the humble leadership of these little communities by their recent updates, however innocent the intention, to the permissions structure. It is for this reason that I feel compelled to entreat that this situation be rectified with all due haste, as it has oft been stated the probability that Blizzard Entertainment is preoccupied with other matters of greater import is quite high. Over the lengthy duration of this issue, it has increased in urgency and import, and has reached a point where, in my humble belief, it now carries greater weight providing the benefit of prioritization.

This is my earnest entreaty, and my fondest hope is that Blizzard Entertainment will respond most favorably to this timid request.

With only the purest of intentions and the utmost respect,

Elder Takoda of Thunder Bluff, Chieftain of Army of Mulgore, Guardian of G’Hanir and Cenarius, the Dreamer, and Champion of the Frozen Wastes

Takoda, you nailed it. True, imitating Lovecraft’s style doesn’t seem to have worked as far as getting the permissions fixed, but it was still marvelously done. Maybe they’re still reading through it and that’s what’s been taking them so long to get around to actually doing something.

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

Quoting myself again because the posts I originally quoted bear repeating, and it’s too hard to find the oldest posts since the forum change:

Still working on my read-through and pulling up gems that deserve extra attention.

Here are two back-to-back posts from page 38 (same poster) that have several excellent suggestions for improving the guild system beyond simply fixing what was broken three months ago:

07/29/2018 09:11 AMPosted by Keiralynn

I have been thinking of other ways to improve the system outside of just reverting it which it so very much needs.

After playing around with Guild Roster Manager a bit there are MANY things that would be awesome to have that GRM has.

Join date of each guild member:

This would help guild leaders to see who has been there the longest and gives them a pooled option on promotions with in the guild via ranks and permissions.

Alt list:

This would allow us to not have to worry about keeping track of adding notes of people’s toons. Instead of taking time to add note’s like “Goober’s alt” it will mass populate the list when you click on the person’s toon name showing you all their toons in guild.

Name changes:

If someone decides they want to change their toons name or they get reported and have to change their name it will automatically update this information.

Ban list:

You can actively ban people who are extremely toxic from ever being invited back to the guild. Even more so to expand on that, it would be awesome if there was an option to when you ban someone they wouldn’t be able to join on any toons again. This would help tremendously as it would protect guilds from toxic people being removed from being able to join again to cause havoc.

These are just a few ideas taken from GRM that I feel like would bring added benefit to the guild UI. Will comment again when an idea hits me.

07/29/2018 09:14 AMPosted by Keiralynn

Mass Invite for events. That has been crazy trying to do as it is based on inviting anyone from one set rank up. More tailored fit where you can select the ranks for invite would be amazing.

For example, you are hosting a pvp event. You know that pve only players wouldn’t want to join. So you check the pvp rank you have in guild and it only invites them. Not them and everyone above that rank.

Another example would be holding a tmog event. Some people just don’t care about that sort of thing and so you could only invite those who are part of a tmog/achieves rank.

Upping the cap for mass invite from 100 would work wonders too.

I like all of these ideas so much I can’t pick a favorite. While I feel like I’d be happy just getting the all-in-one permissions removed, ideas like these do make me want a little more from Blizz. We were asked for additional functionality that we’d like to see. I believe Keiralynn has knocked this one out of the park.

As anyone can see, these are very specific suggestions for guild improvements. They aren’t prioritized, but you can’t have everything.

[Asaniel-wyrmrest-accord]

I’m sure they thought they were being helpful by streamlining a very complex system that most of the playerbase couldn’t understand.

[Brahmina-khadgar (Brahmina)]

I assume you’re being ironic, or sarcastic, or whatever that is.

[Magnius-thrall (Magnius)]

Yea, I am 100% sure it is saving them GM Ticket time.

[Rajia-galakrond]

(Plz don’t listen to the player housing people, Blizzard! This is an MMO. We should be encouraged to be around other players. I will defend their right to have a one man guild and solo access to a guild hall. Please don’t make me explain why a player house is not appealing to those of us that play socially. It’s really super obvious.)

I would adore it if they combined these ideas though - I would log my toon out in her guild apartment every stinkin’ day because the idea that she’s sleeping under the same roof as her pals would just make me so happy. Guild halls with integrated player housing that you could combine with other players if desired! So my spouse and I could have our toons have a nice little crash pad to share, or RPers could double up in any configuration that makes sense to them. It could be fun!

You know what else would be fun? Having granular guild controls back.

[Takoda-kul-tiras (Takoda)]

Guild halls with integrated player housing

Ohh, now there’s an idea…just need a way to make it so their personal stuff in the apartment isn’t compromised when I get power-happy and start gkicking people.

[Lucyclawless-durotan (Lucyclawless)]

Excuse me Father for I have sinned. It’s been at least a Month since my last Bump. Since my last bump, my guild has managed to maintain AOTC on all the current content and folks are retiring from lack of interest. We have also had people join our guild because it’s been active unlike theirs despite people retiring from the game.
All that I pray for is to see some light at the end of this tunnel and in return I shall praise RNGeezus and say Three Hail Bwonsamdi’s.

[Rajia-galakrond]

So a lovely thing happened to my guild the other day, one of our newish (about a year?) members came to me and wanted to organize a Herald of the Titans run. We’ve done this a time or two in our history, but not recently, and I love people who take initiative to do the things they care about, so I cheerfully signed off on this prospect and offered my assistance in any way I could be helpful. (Other than pulling my level 80 twink out of mothballs and finding her some new duds, of course.)

My guild has a rank for people like this newish member - people who are gung-ho, but may not want to be officers, just want to run their own little fiefdom or project - we called it Hyperactive. So I excitedly went to promote this newish person to Hyper, forgetting briefly the travesty that is isOfficer. So that she could personally invite the many new alts that this project tends to spawn, I gave her invite ability, but alas, I cannot assign to her the ability to edit the notes on those new toons, instead they will just float around unknown until I or another officer notices and attends to it. In order that she be able to promote her endeavor, I wanted to give her edit GmotD, but noooo… This is tedious and avoidable!

The positive side of the experience (other than the growth of my involved members) is that in my irritation I came here. And read this thread. All of it. I was heartened by so many other people who care a whole awful lot about the ways in which they can best serve their guilds, you folks are pretty great.

And also I want to be friends with Takoda, as long as she doesn’t kick me out of my imaginary guild apartment.

TL;DR: People who care about stuff are rad. Blizzard is less rad. Please prioritize the return of granular guild permissions.

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

That’s a good story, Rajia. It clearly illustrates the need for separate permissions so Guild Masters can customize the ranks to the needs of their guilds.

That’s really what this thread is all about. We used to have the ability to assign permissions as required by the guild’s needs. Ever since July of 2018, we haven’t.

This has gone on long enough. I’m not on the PTR, so I don’t know what changes have been made for 8.2, but I haven’t heard of any. This problem should have been a priority and it should have been fixed ages ago. I don’t know what I’m going to think if another major patch comes and goes without a fix–especially since Ion made it sound like all they were waiting for was more feedback.

You’ve got your feedback, Ion. You know what we need. Make it so.

[Druunah-ravencrest (Druunah)]

This is tedious

You’ve got your feedback, Ion. You know what we need. Make it so.

Ohh, now there’s an idea

Still here Blizzard.

Fix our guilds please.

[Takoda-kul-tiras (Takoda)]

And also I want to be friends with Takoda, as long as she doesn’t kick me out of my imaginary guild apartment.

Awww! I want to be your friend too, as long as you aren’t one of those weird humans who want to turn me into steak and hamburgers. Salads are good. Or cupcakes! Do you like cupcakes?

Blizzard, my new friend needs guild permissions to be fixed too. Just like me!

[Holliday-lightbringer (Holliday)]

Still broken, still being ignored by Blizzard…

[Tatertot-darkspear (Tatertot)]

Sad really, guilds have so much potential…but the ui and permissions is so Horrendous. …
And basically they give us one forum thread…

Its like screaming in a black hole…

Why blizzard? Why?

[Venjin-bronzebeard (Venjin)]

I’m about to just create a toon on y’alls servers so we can all commiserate in guild chat real soon.

Either that or create a “Guild Controls Suck” discord.

[Rajia-galakrond]

We could be really meta about it and make a Guild Controls Suck Community.

[Brahmina-khadgar (Brahmina)]

Okay, Rajia, you made me laugh.

Now, if only Blizz would make me happy by fixing the permissions…

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

I’m still doing my read-through, even though I haven’t been able to do it every day lately. Here is a post (with plenty of specific feedback) commenting on the most recent post I quoted:

Fumel found a great post here in my opinion!

As a Gm since the early days, I find many of these ideas amazing and I have to wonder why they were not implemented by Blizz at some point over the last decade or so, and why in the blankity blank they (Blizz) though it’d be a great idea to not expand the guild ui / permissions, but instead cripple them severely.

I personally really like the idea of a “join date” and “alt list” being added to the guild ui.

For me anyway, writing notes on who joined when, and who’s alt is who’s has been extremely time consuming, tedious, and even frustrating at the times over the years. (Guildies are not always great at listing what toons belong to them and confusion and even anger can and does happen when cleaning house (ie" booting inactive toons)

We personally don’t do a lot of booting for inactivity. We’re usually of of the mind-frame “Once a BloodOath always a BloodOath” However, a toon that joined, played for 5 minutes and then doesn’t come back in months may be removed.

As most guild have I’m sure, we’ve had our share of the toxic folks over the years. An option in the guild permissions to perma-ban certain individuals as well as their entire account to prevent them from coming back on alts time and time again to cause even more issues would be amazing from a leadership point of view.

Mass invites. also an awesome idea.

We have guild meetings. They are open to all guildies, but not in any way mandatory. (Not everyone is interested in participating in meetings, being social, various guild events, etc…)

A better system to invite those who actually want to attend functions like that or similar would save guild leaders (at least this one) a lot of trouble and the folks not interested in an invite they do not want

Features like those above mentioned would be invaluable.

Indeed. As Fumel said “Keiralynn has knocked this one out of the park”

Blizzard: THAS is the sort of person with actual good ideas for Warcraft you should be hiring and listening to

Intently.

Here is a repeat of the quoted post (for those who might be interested but who don’t want to scroll up to find it):

Still working on my read-through and pulling up gems that deserve extra attention.

Here are two back-to-back posts from page 38 (same poster) that have several excellent suggestions for improving the guild system beyond simply fixing what was broken three months ago:

07/29/2018 09:11 AMPosted by Keiralynn

I have been thinking of other ways to improve the system outside of just reverting it which it so very much needs.

After playing around with Guild Roster Manager a bit there are MANY things that would be awesome to have that GRM has.

Join date of each guild member:

This would help guild leaders to see who has been there the longest and gives them a pooled option on promotions with in the guild via ranks and permissions.

Alt list:

This would allow us to not have to worry about keeping track of adding notes of people’s toons. Instead of taking time to add note’s like “Goober’s alt” it will mass populate the list when you click on the person’s toon name showing you all their toons in guild.

Name changes:

If someone decides they want to change their toons name or they get reported and have to change their name it will automatically update this information.

Ban list:

You can actively ban people who are extremely toxic from ever being invited back to the guild. Even more so to expand on that, it would be awesome if there was an option to when you ban someone they wouldn’t be able to join on any toons again. This would help tremendously as it would protect guilds from toxic people being removed from being able to join again to cause havoc.

These are just a few ideas taken from GRM that I feel like would bring added benefit to the guild UI. Will comment again when an idea hits me.

07/29/2018 09:14 AMPosted by Keiralynn

Mass Invite for events. That has been crazy trying to do as it is based on inviting anyone from one set rank up. More tailored fit where you can select the ranks for invite would be amazing.

For example, you are hosting a pvp event. You know that pve only players wouldn’t want to join. So you check the pvp rank you have in guild and it only invites them. Not them and everyone above that rank.

Another example would be holding a tmog event. Some people just don’t care about that sort of thing and so you could only invite those who are part of a tmog/achieves rank.

Upping the cap for mass invite from 100 would work wonders too.

I like all of these ideas so much I can’t pick a favorite. While I feel like I’d be happy just getting the all-in-one permissions removed, ideas like these do make me want a little more from Blizz. We were asked for additional functionality that we’d like to see. I believe Keiralynn has knocked this one out of the park.

[Rajia-galakrond]

as long as you aren’t one of those weird humans who want to turn me into steak and hamburgers. Salads are good. Or cupcakes! Do you like cupcakes?

Of course I like cupcakes! I also like burgers, but only clefhoof burgers, never friend burgers!

Other things I like - having useful management tools for my guild.

[Andalya-ghostlands (Andalya)]

They are pushing guilds to the side. It’s sad to say, but the only real reason to even be in a guild anymore is for mythic progression. Blizzard has removed nearly any other reason. WoW has evolved into a light-lobby game. You don’t need to form friendships and alliances, you just open up your group finder and start signing up for groups.

This is something that my guildies and I have been talking about for awhile now – how it feels like with the invention of “communities” (which broke guild stuff that, as we’ve discussed in this thread, remains unfixed), Blizzard has decided that guilds are pointless and they’ve taken away most of the perks of being in a guild.

But, as I said before in this thread, for many people, their guild is the only thing keeping them playing the game. I hear all the time from my own guildmates “if you guys left, I’d leave too”, or “Do you guys want to all jump ship and go to [insert other game] together?”

While it’s nice to have the option of being a light-lobby game for those that don’t have the time/inclination to join a guild and form friendships, those of us that have, should not be punished or forgotten about.

In regards to the other things you guys have mentioned recently (since I’m not going to repeat what I’ve said earlier in this thread):

• re: dethroning – I have my guild set up so that below is a rank for my alts then the officer rank then the officer alts (and I actually have a plan in place for if the day comes where I quit or cannot login anymore for health reasons)

• re: the officer checkbox – I have 3 officers that I’ve known for 8-9 years so I trust them and they know what to not mess with (even if Blizzard gives them permission to)

• re: suggestions – I’d like to see the Guild UI/Calendar fixed before even bothering with suggestions on what would be nice (like different ways of sorting the members, seeing ilvls, recruitment, etc)