The new Guild UI and Permissions...yikes (Part 1)

Still reading through the thread, and came across this post, which was kind of frightening considering it’s from September. It’s like I’m in Groundhog Day or something:

Edit: Yeah, I’m just about the last one left posting, and I’m only still doing it because I said I’d keep posting until the permissions are fixed or the thread is locked down.

The thing is, we’ve already given all the feedback needed to fix this mess (just like I said in the post I just quoted). There’s really no need to keep posting. BUT Ion said he wanted more–along with priorities. What needs to be said (by Blizzard) is that we’ve been heard, and the guild permissions will be fixed asap. Then, of course, the permissions need to actually be fixed, but at least letting us know that it’s going to happen would be a huge step in the right direction.

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Specific feedback:

My guild, while majority populated by RL friends, does not rely on said RL friends because a) they’ve quit the game and b) the majority of them never wanted the responsibility in the first place of being an officer. Thus, we had to rely on people we had never met to help us run the guild since the implementation of our functional structure in '08.

With the gutting of compartmentalization, we can no longer specialize officer ranks, and therefore, could no longer consider having an officer due to previous issues with delegating “too much power”. Yes, we have trust issues. It’s what happens when you go through what we did.

Without help to run the guild while we’re not logged on (for eff’s sake Bliz, I mostly post when I’m at work), our guild is, for all intents and purposes, now dead. We cannot recruit effectively (and even if we could, you’ve destroyed incentives to join up). We can no longer offer round-the-clock officer/GM support for issues with the bank, help with runs/quests, or anything else. And the persistent chat logs are now an ever-present reminder of just how dead we’ve become.

My wife and I now play our mains only for story quests, while we wait for something…ANYTHING to get people back into the game.

I’ve said it before, Blizz. We want to help you keep people in your game as paying customers. Not sure why you don’t want to give us the tools to help you out.

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This.

Blizz:

Please pull your collective heads out of your collective behinds and wake up.

Side note:

I want to reiterate that although I am no longer posting as much as I once did, I am checking this thread several times a day.

My reasons for not posting?

In real life I hate repeating myself. It’s a pet peeve I suppose.

And here, on this thread, I have said it all.

All my concerns, all my ideas, all of my solutions, (for better or worse) as well as all of my specific needs regarding guilds and guild permissions.

Blizz just needs to read them.

For the record Blizzard, as per my original promise to you. I have not gone anywhere nor do I intend to.

I’ll be watching, waiting, and of course, reading.

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Don’t worry, I can do the repeating.

This is pretty much all I’ve been doing as well–though not so much on this character.

I was trying to get all the class mounts and had gotten all the way up to the actual class mount quest for my horde rogue. Unfortunately, it turns out a rogue must be max level in order to actually do that quest because–surprise!–a lvl 111 can’t stealth past lvl 120 guards. I had held out some hope that Blizz would have used their marvelous scaling technology to make that quest doable on the level for which it was made, but I should have known better.

I don’t really mind. There are far more important things to get done–such as separating the guild permissions. I read an interview Ion gave today where he admitted they’ve made some mistakes that they hope to have fixed for 8.2. He didn’t mention guild issues directly, but he alluded to there being multiple things being worked on. We can only hope the permissions are one of those things.

I’d like to see them fixed well before 8.2 of course, but if I have to wait until then, okay. What I really don’t want to see is that patch without a fix for the permissions (if they haven’t been done sooner).

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I came across something that may be interesting in this article.

The specific bit that stood out to me is this:

Ion: We need to be more willing than we have been in the last couple of years and expansions to make permanent additions to the game.

My first thought was…guild halls? I’ve been thinking about guild halls quite a bit over the last several days, trying to answer the questions "What would a well done guild hall look like?" "How would it last across expansions?" "What would a good balance between function and going out into the world look like?"

I think the most basic answer that I’ve come to is that a guild hall should be modular in its design. When a new expansion (or even a new patch) comes out, the guild can work towards unlocking the new modules. Once earned, they can choose to keep the old modules, or use the new ones. This could be semi-permanent, with both a cost and a cooldown (or build time) to encourage players to make their choices carefully. Some modules could be purely functional, while others are cosmetic.

Modular Function:

Take a garden, for example. End goal is obviously to get herbs. Rather than building it like the garrison garden, what if instead we had, say, three raised beds. Each bed can grow 10 plants. The guild (everyone), working together, unlocks first one bed, then the second, then the third. The herbalists in the guild work to unlock access to growing herbs from a specific expansion (tier 3 herbing required). Once that herb is unlocked, each bed can be assigned to grow herbs from that expansion. The guild herbalists would then need to go pick herbs in that expansion and bring back seeds. The seeds could then be planted in the raised bed, and if they are tended by a druid, the yield is increased. Herbalism is required to harvest. Some plants could need replanting daily, and others could produce for several days before needing to be replanted.

I really like the idea of having professions and classes work together for a small increase. It’s a nice way to capitalize on class fantasy, while at the same time making more players feel useful. The tricky thing is to balance it so that the increase is not so great that it becomes mandatory.

A fishing pond could work in a very similar way. Fisherpersons go out into the world fishing, and occasionally catch a small fish. They can bring that fish back to the guild hall to stock the pond. If you don’t regularly stock your guild pond, it will run out of fish. But when you do stock it, you could, say, fish up only the fish you use the most while standing in one location.

Mining gets a little weird, at least in my mind. But the only real idea that I’ve come up with for it is to have warlocks summon infernals (probably in a quarry area because no one wants to set the guild hall on fire). This could be a little mini-event kind of like garrison invasions, where it’s easier if done in a small group. Miners can then harvest the infernals to obtain stoney bits. Alchemists can then transmute the infernal stone into useful ores.

If it’s a small guild, and doesn’t have a particular class or profession, maybe there could be a way to hire an NPC to perform the necessary function without the increased yield.

Modular Cosmetics:

I really like the idea of the guild hall being located in the void, outside of time and space. Surrounded by blackness, it could have a default feel of being in the eye of a storm. Safe here, but nothingness all around. A blank slate for the guild to do whatever they want.

I envision an indoor space similar to Waycrest Manor in that it is enclosed, with small hallways leading to larger rooms. Vertical space with multiple floors, rather than purely a horizontal space to increase the size without making it feel empty. An enclosed courtyard for outdoor space. Entrance and exit via portal.

I don’t really want a vast open space because of how that played out in GW2. The guild halls there feel vast, empty, and lonely. The guild hall needs to have a central space for socializing, rp, or whatever. The design of the hall should send players to complete various tasks in little corners, but ultimately everything should lead people together into a central place.

As far as modular cosmetics, I don’t really want to build the hall out of tiles. I’d prefer pre-set designs that can be overlayed with various themes that the guild unlocks. Themes such as Horde and Alliance could be available super quickly, with longer times to earn racial themes, or raid tier themes.

I envision purchasing little alcoves where we can put suits of armor made by our blacksmiths commemorating things like AOTC, and slots on the walls where we can hang banners made by our very own tailors commemorating other guild achievements. Display cases to show off our old school legendary weapon collections. These things need to be purchasable though, because there’s nothing quite so depressing as an empty spot where your bling is supposed to be. (See garrison monuments.)

It would also be really cool if the guild could earn various sky boxes for the hall, to be installed by enchanters. There are so many gorgeous sky boxes already in this game, that I’m completely ok with just earning those. We could pair a beach hall theme with a Tanaris sky. Or a haunted hall theme with the Darkshore sky.

Movable furniture: Like with the actual guild hall, I’d prefer pre-set furniture themes, with the added ability to purchase extras – like if we need more chairs for perfectly innocent reasons. I’d also like to be able to have a “Decor mode” to be able to position the furniture where I want it. And yes, I fully expect that someone will go afk in the guild hall and come back to find themselves in the center of a sea of chairs with no way to escape except hearthing. It will be great.

Basic Perks:

Feast hall: The guild (everyone) can work together to build the feast hall. Once constructed, chefs can stock the feast hall. The advantage to eating at the feast hall is that your well fed buff persists through death, however, it only lasts 40 minutes. Players farming meat could occasionally find some high-quality meat cuts that extend the duration of this buff to last through raid night at a somewhat high mat cost. (The drop rate for this high-quality meat could be higher for skinners.) I also really want a Hogwarts-esque ceiling for the feast hall, where we can see our chosen sky box.

Waygate: The guild (everyone) can work together to build the waygate. Players can individually earn the ability to use the waygate (such as, complete a dungeon 10 times). Once that dungeon’s waygate is unlocked, the player is able to teleport to the other gate a short distance away from that dungeon’s meeting stone. The core idea here is to reduce travel time while not removing players from the world. This would basically cut out the flight path, but leave a small run and meeting stone crowds intact.

The feast hall and waygate would only have the ability to help with one expansion’s content to help prevent clutter and excess. The guild would have to install the feast table/waygate for their chosen expansion in the same modular fashion.

Balance:

I think the real key to pulling this off is to make it so that any guild, even a one man guild, yields most of the benefits of having a guild hall, assuming that someone is working on it regularly. A guild with 900 players will have roughly the same benefits as a guild with 5 players. One way to accomplish that is to have a diminishing returns system on unlocks. The first player who works towards a daily unlock may get, say, 5% completion. The second player gets 3%, and the third 1%. After that, completion percent drops dramatically.

I think one of the other major keys is to balance guild unlocks vs individual unlocks. People shouldn’t be able to just join a big guild that already has everything unlocked and instantly be able to get access to all guild hall perks. Having some things, like the waygate, have an individual component provides a way for people who missed the original build phase to still work towards something and reap some benefits after reaching a goal.

…That got way longer than I expected. I think I need to stop for now lol

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Here is some more specific feedback from September about the persistent chat:

Nysalla’s solution here is perfect: make the persistent chat optional. That way folks who want it can have it, and those who don’t aren’t forced into something they don’t like/want.

Again, our main point in this thread is the permissions, but the chat is certainly another common complaint I’ve seen throughout the thread. If you’re looking to fix more than one thing while you’re at it, Blizz, the chat would be a good one to address. Allowing for multiple channels and making the persistent feature optional are the two main points I’ve seen people posting.

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I tried to create an officer rank that could invite, create and delete guild events, but not kick, edit MotD, or guild info.

Could somebody at Bliz please help me accomplish this, because I can’t seem to do it.

I’m not having a replay of the time Jeet decided to hijack our guild but would like to have somebody help us run the guild.

The only guy I really trust with that much power, Magdall, passed away from cancer a few years back so he’s not an option.

Can offer more details if this isn’t specific enough.

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I love your guild hall ideas, Takoda. You’ve really put a lot of thought into it. I especially like how you discussed balance, so that big guilds don’t have a huge advantage over small ones. The biggest problem with the previous (discontinued) guild perks was the incentive to just invite everyone possible to increase the money generated by the cash flow perk.

I really, really hope someone at Blizz takes a good look at the post you made here.

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Somebody keeps tweeting posts from this thread directly to Ion.

It’s funny.

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They’re doing the Light’s work. I hope they carry on.

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Here is another post from September explaining why the poster doesn’t have any officers and offering further guild management suggestions.

Now, I know that Wretchedmist pretty much keeps repeating the same post, but it’s a solid post with specific feedback. I see nothing wrong with repeating it myself (obvously).

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Different guilds have different structures, hence the “Is Officer” doesn’t work for everyone. I use it, but I can’t create a ‘junior officer’ rank. My guild understands, but I would much prefer I have the options to design ranks as I see fit. The steady removal of options for guild leaders is not encouraging.

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Here is a lengthy, very specific post about guild permissions (from September still) and what the poster would like to see:

I edited out the beginning of the post, which was a detailed, well-stated commentary about how this issue has been handled by Blizzard so far (or as far as September anyway). I didn’t quote that part because it’s not giving feedback specifically about what we’d like to see with guild changes. It does give pretty specific feedback about what we’d like to see differently in regard to this thread and the response from Blizzard. I recommend anyone who wants to read it, hit the little up arrow on the quoted post and go do so.

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Since my wife has asked for a status update, I felt I would pass along the memo to the appropriate department:

Status update please!

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Here is another post from September with very clear, specific feedback that’s even ranked (I assume according to this poster’s priorities):

I confess, a lot of the posts have been simply people asking why Blizz isn’t saying anything about this issue one way or the other. Another big chunk (now that I’m into September) have been me quoting earlier posts that gave good feedback. It’s kind of a horrible feeling to know I’ve been quoting posts for seven months now, and I’ve not run out of posts to quote.

Of course, the majority of posts are still asking for the permissions to be reverted. I’m really not sure what other feedback Ion wants, but I’ll keep finding stuff to quote and bring to his attention as long as the thread stays open and the permissions aren’t fixed.

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You are doing a good thing, Fumel.
Keep it up.
It keeps the thread relevant and moving between posts.

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Hey Blizzard:

It’s me. The Guild leader of MY guild.

Remember me? The po’d chick that just wont go away? (I promised you I would not to go away months and months back when this thread first started. I don’t know about you dear Blizzard, but I for one keep my word)
You? Cough: “better communications” Cough

At any rate, even after all this time I am still po’d about how you removed the guild permissions without the slightest heads up you were going to do so.

It’s been proposed here in various posts that perhaps it was an unintentional result of: blah blah “communities” blah blah “code” “this” blah blah “that” and perhaps the whole thing was an accident"

Maybe that is true. I don’t know. I do know that regardless of the actual cause be it intentional or otherwise, you must have known before BfA launched.

To not at the very least give Guild Leaders a heads up is an insult to (as you once referred to guilds) “the backbone of the Wow”

People generally apologize for accidents.

(Sigh. This is what I get for not posting as often as I once did. I think too much. When I think too much I get mad. When I get mad, I “vent”)

Poor you Blizz.

As a side (and mostly unrelated) note, I’d like to take this opportunity to say goodbye to an old friend and guild mate.

I learned today that one of our guild’s long-time “regulars” passed away suddenly a couple of weeks ago. Jah (Jack) was a musician, a family man (who sadly lost his beloved wife only a couple of years ago) as well as an animal lover. He was “strong willed” man, and we sometimes (often) did not see eye to eye. He, as many of us, was looking forward to the release of Classic Wow this summer. He also never failed to make me smile when he tried. He was a great big old goofball at times.

As I have mentioned, we are a very laid back guild. We are playing for the sake of playing and having fun. We are not raiders. ie: We tend to wipe a lot.

Jack was fond of making jokes about our frequent corps runs. Or as he sometimes put than “the old boneyard walks of shame”

I’ll think of him with a little sad smile every time I have to make that fabled run.

We’ll miss you Jack.

Godspeed.

Oh, and Blizzard:

Please fix the permissions

Thank you

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Quoting this again, because I don’t have anything else to add that hasn’t already been said. At the bare minimum Blizz, a restoration of previous functionality to the guild UI and granular officer permissions is what we want. If you want to do any additional funstuffs, there’s plenty of awesome ideas here for that too!

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Sorry to hear of your loss. It’s WoW’s loss, too. And now I’m going to think of the phrase, “boneyard walk of shame” whenever I’m running back to my body.

I’m not trying to be funny, but I can’t help wondering if Blizzard will get this permissions mess fixed before any of the rest of us pass away. I mean, we don’t have all the time in the world, you know? None of us do.

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I’m glad you said that.

My lost guildie was “older” Speaking for myself, I am someone who is also (probably) “older” than the average Wow player, the same thought has crossed my mind.

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