The new Guild UI and Permissions...yikes (Part 1)

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

So, continuing my read-through. I’m quoting my self this time because I gave some very specific feed-back about how to improve guild recruitment:

I would definitely like a better recruitment function. GM’s (or whoever they’ve appointed as their recruitment officer) should be able to extend invitations to interested players even if the players are offline. Then the player can accept the invitation when they log in.

Of course, the guild recruitment tab ought to allow for at least a brief questionnaire so guilds and those searching for a guild home can have some idea if they’d be a match. Not every guild is a raiding guild with a website and their own testing process. Casual social/leveling guilds have their place, and there are plenty of players who would like to join such guilds. Anything that can help players find the right guild for them (and vice versa) would be much appreciated.

Now, the permissions are still the #1 priority. I would put recruitment at #3, after improvements to the roster (#2). This is because GM’s need the management tools before they recruit more members. And then, of course, guild perks (#4).

[Venjin-bronzebeard (Venjin)]

Blizzard.

Jusuf Nurkic just broke his leg.

There’s your timetable.

[Venjin-bronzebeard (Venjin)]

toxic trolls (not the good kind like Venjin)

Fumel can attest:

I am drunk.

Not Toxic.

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

Here’s some more specific feedback from September about ways to improve recruitment:

Revamp the guild recruitment/finder browser. The new browser will have detailed information on guild such as inception date, a brief, personalized summary from the GM (limited in characters of course), number of accounts enlisted, last active date of the top two ranks, achievement score, and an actual listing of any online members with their guild-specific ranks.

Players could register themselves as looking for a guild with checkboxes for specific desires/needs and a short bio in the browser. Guilds could browse the pool of players actively seeking a guild. Invites could be sent by GM’s and empowered guild members via mail if necessary.

Also implement an avatar for this function at each faction hub near the guild vendors next to a post-board for flavor.

I thought it would take me longer each night to find a post with specific suggestions on improvements. It’s true that the majority of posts are simply deploring the permissions change and the lack of response from anyone at Blizzard. However, it turns out that detailed posts aren’t really that hard to find.

Now, people haven’t really been prioritizing–probably because we pretty much all agree that fixing the permissions is the number one priority. Honestly, I think Ion’s comment about prioritizing is more smoke and mirrors pretending to say something when he’s really not.

But anyway, as I said before, recruitment is important, but not as important as managing the guilds in the first place. My priorities:

1. Fix permissions
2. Improve the roster functions
3. Improve recruitment
4. Add guild perks

[Andalya-ghostlands (Andalya)]

We’ve given so much specific feedback in this thread, that for him to say “we need specific feedback” really means that the developers aren’t reading the thread themselves and are relying on someone else (a blue?) to give them a summary of what we’ve said, and the only summary they’ve heard is likely from ages ago.

Everything that could be said has been said many times over, we just need someone from Blizzard to read the thread and give our specific feedback to the development team. Is this likely to happen? I don’t know, but I hope so.

[Dlaciabia-sisters-of-elune (Dlaciabia)]

• Fix permissions
• Improve the roster functions
• Improve recruitment
• Add guild perks

Specifically do this stuff.

[Venjin-bronzebeard (Venjin)]

WTF…I must have been massively wasted when I posted this. I have no recollection of ever making this suggestion…

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

I have no recollection of ever making this suggestion…

You did mention in a part of the post that I didn’t quote that you were were not influenced by your wife and you were not trying to watch Philly v. Atlanta while she was going on about something. It’s just possible you might not have been 100% paying attention when you posted.

[Nêlsôn-greymane]

Taking bets on if we hit 4000 posts before we get any input from blizzard.

[Lucyclawless-durotan (Lucyclawless)]

I think we already decided this thread will hit over 9000 and they will give us an achievement before they give us a response.

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

I’ve caught up to myself, meaning I’m finding posts by me quoting others. However, there are still plenty of detailed posts for me to quote.

The following is a very clear post detailing the problems this particular GM has with the permissions changes. It’s focused on the changes and doesn’t present any new ideas. Clearly, the priority for this poster is to have the permissions separated out again.

I’m sure all of the points I am about to make have been made at some point already in this massive thread, but as a WoW-Player who focuses on running an effective guild, these changes simply blew me away. I understand the new permission “Toggle”, as a baseline feature, possibly to assist guild-leaders who don’t want to do the extra permissions work, BUT why take away the additional permissions, as at least an option?

I think it goes without saying that many guilds used the individual permissions, and the definitive features they control, for far more than their original purpose. For example, my guild used Public notes to set certain guild-wide status updates like “Do Not Kicks” and “House sortings” for RP, while using officer notes to be like twitter/facebook statuses, allowing the individual guild member to set their own to whatever they’d like. It was fun!

Furthermore, the permission to “Create a guild event” has been removed ENTIRELY which is just insane to me. Every single member of my guild, can post an event. So now, my upper tier ranking members, who had to earn the right to run a guild wide event, are without purpose or any sense of “Power”.

In Conclusion, the simplification of guild permissions, meant to make things easier for GM’s (I think) has actually increased my stress, and work level. Because if I want a officers to share some of the duties between me and my Co-GM, I have to let them have JUST as much control as the Co-GM.

And I don’t know about you, but letting your officers have control of message of the day, is a mess waiting to happen. and allowing your mid-tier members to be able to delete chat messages, just so they can change or see officer notes, is such a huge step backwards.

/sigh, why did this even get changed.

P.S: I did not even mention that my officers can now edit Guild-Info, which was an exclusive feature to me, as GM, I used it for reasons other than strictly intended by blizzard, which I am sure many other guilds can agree with. As for the members of my guild, who stay subbed for an entire expansions because of the events and progression systems I put in place for them, parallel to RP etc, they are not pleased with the direct decrease in permissions they can “earn”, creating too many ranks which are identical, and take away from the fantasy I’ve been supporting for almost 4 years. Please Blizzard, this is one feature that needs to be looked at once more, or at the very least, returned to normal.

/BEG

Honestly, I don’t know why it is you guys want more feedback with posts like the above having existed for seven months (with many other older detailed, specific posts since the thread began). We’ve been told that Community Managers read threads and pass information on to the developers, but how can that be if you guys don’t know all the stuff we’ve already written here? Are you truly even looking at this thread?

[Altherei-wyrmrest-accord (Altherei)]

Untangle all the officer permissions that have been lumped into ‘IsOfficer’, and allow them once more to be separately assigned based on individual ranks and GM discretion. Return the granular officer permissions that existed before BfA’s launch.

This is the most absolute basic request of all GMs- former and current- who have posted in this thread. Of course others have more far more thoughtful, in-depth, and detailed posts with additional things they would like, but at the bare minimum what we want is a return to the granular, separated permissions that gave GMs the ability to run their guilds and order ranks and permissions in the way that made sense for their guild.

Quoting my older reply after the Q&A. This is specific feedback- along with many, many other excellent and detailed posts in this thread that have been made since its inception. There is no shortage of specific, detailed, proper feedback in this thread. It’s existed before the Q&A, and if the devs need reminders, here’s mine.

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

Here is another post from earlier in the thread detailing how the permissions were handled by this GM’s guild:

Over the years, my guild has adjusted permissions specifically to respond to certain scenarios. This guild was founded in 2006, so there have been a lot of scenarios.

For example, back in Wrath, the GM was hacked. Officers and officer alts were able to withdraw enough flasks/feasts before the hacker kicked them to make sure the raid group was largely unaffected. After that happened, we added an authenticator requirement for promotions. But we also modified permissions to help mitigate the damage should something like this happen again.

More recently, when I took over GM in early WOD, the guild had a solid base of players, but few events planned. I expanded permissions to empower people to create more events. As a result, the guild became more active and more social.

My guild had 12 years worth of experiences and thought put into who needs what permission and why. There have been three GMs in that time who have each modified permissions according to the guild’s needs, and built on the work of the previous GMs. All of that work is rendered invalid by the IsOfficer box.

Note the specific examples and explanations why the permissions need to be separated. No, there are no other ideas for guild improvements presented, no doubt because fixing the permissions is the main concern here.

[Takoda-kul-tiras (Takoda)]

No, there are no other ideas for guild improvements presented, no doubt because fixing the permissions is the main concern here.

I can confirm the quoted person’s primary motivation is to have permissions restored. Why? Because that is what’s most important to me. I’m happy to have other improvements too. But first and foremost, I’d like the lost functionality back.

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

Okay, still in September (2018). I’m quoting this next post because it feels particularly relevant to our situation now:

Blizzard stating thread extended? ✓
Ignoring feedback by not responding? ✓
Ask for feedback in a QA when there’s already a 68 page thread about it at the time? ✓
Ninja implement changes without posting an update or posting in the main thread of the issue? ✓
55 days past issue and no additional comments? ✓
Going to have another post of “Thread cap extended”? Probably.

I don’t think we’re going to see anything about this. It’d be different if they said, “Hey guys, we hear you and we’re making some changes to this and this. This is what we have so far. What do you think about it?” Instead of taking stabs in the dark and wasting developer resources in case it ends up being worse or not what we wanted… but that’d be breaking tradition to go outside of their box.

They don’t have to extend the threads any more since the new format (which makes me wonder if that was one of the reasons they let so many CM’s go). But the reminder that they already asked for feedback in a previous Q&A just really struck a nerve. Okay, maybe having Ion ask for even more feedback in this most recent Q&A is better than being completely ignored, but sometimes I have to wonder if they’re not all just laughing at us.

“Hey, guys! Who’s taking bets that they’ll jump on it if we ask for even more feedback? Oh! And let’s ask them to prioritize it this time!”

Raicolette really fingers the problem when she suggests it would be “different” if the devs actually communicated back with us. Right now it’s like we’re throwing ideas, suggestions, feedback, etc. into a bottomless pit. We have absolutely zero idea if anyone is even reading this.

If anyone from Blizzard would communicate back with us in this thread, we’d have some idea where they are in the process and how many of our zany ideas they really intend to implement. I don’t want to waste my time talking about all the cool things Guild Halls could do for WoW if they’re not ever going to be a thing. At the same time, people have posted some terrific suggestions for guild improvements that I’d really love to see.

It’s really a shame that the number one thing ALL of us want (separate permissions) is something we had before the BfA prepatch, rather than new improvements that would make guilds totally awesome (and easier to manage).

[anon70593351]

It’s really a shame that the number one thing ALL of us want (separate permissions) is something we had before the BfA prepatch, rather than new improvements that would make guilds totally awesome (and easier to manage).

Right?! Imagine if for BfA Blizzard had

1. Not changed guilds in the first place.

but then released some kind of statement like this…

2. “What kinds of improvements would people like to see for guilds?”

Instead we have almost a year of yelling at Blizzard to just revert the stupid changes that literally no one asked for. And not once has anyone stepped in to say why these changes represent an improvement.

It’s worse in every way. And them saying they want more feedback at this point is just…

It’s really frustrating.

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

Instead we have almost a year of yelling at Blizzard to just revert the stupid changes that literally no one asked for . And not once has anyone stepped in to say why these changes represent an improvement.

Well, I think the changes happened because of unintended consequences. They wanted to integrate guilds and the new community function, but they didn’t check to see what would happen when they did so. They didn’t remove the granular permissions on purpose, it was just a consequence that they didn’t consider ahead of time.

Now they’re stuck with trying to undo a mess without further breaking either the communities or guilds. While the best results would be to break it all down and start over, they can’t do that now that everything is live. So they’re probably going to try to patch something in, sometime. However, it’s apparently not a “priority” for them right now, so they string us along with requests for more feedback.

What? Me jaded? Naahhh.

[Lucyclawless-durotan (Lucyclawless)]

While the prospect of a new and improved Guild control interface sounds delightful, I am worried that anyone who might’ve been taking notes with the intention of developing a presentation to developers is now in the long line at the Unemployed Game-makers Union Hall. Between Blizz/Activ’s 800 folks and EA’s 300 folks, plus several other studios that closed recently that’s a lot of game-production and services employees pounding sand.

Blizzard even told investors that the layoffs might negatively impact their production (No duh!) and projects will no doubt be delayed. But then it just goes to show that Blizzard’s loyalty has shifted from its customers to its investors. I guess that’s because as a customer, my money goes into the company just like an investor, but unlike the investor, my money can’t come back out. I was okay with that when the quality of service was reasonable. But now I feel like Activision Blizzard wants WoW to be a box game like all the other games Activision has released. Put it on a shelf and sell it; no maintenance, no support, no hotfixes or patches. Gone are the days of person-to-person support in WoW.

I’m sure if someone walked into the office at Irvine, they’ll likely find a trail of papers leading to the employee parking lot. And amongst the pink slips and circled wanted ads, there’s a Post-it sticky that reads, “Guild control suggestions” lying on the floor with them. That is assuming Blizzard also fired the custodial staff since they were deemed unnecessary like so many other service personnel in the building.

[Venjin-bronzebeard (Venjin)]

Next patch notes:

Guild controls have been fully restored, but are only accessible from a smartphone app.

“Do you guys not have phones?”

[Fumel-arathor (Fumel)]

Continuing through the thread. Here’s a nice suggestion for a guild perk:

Suggestion: Guild Repair-Only Fund and accompanying restoration of old guild perk that funneled a portion of all looted money to guild pool, only this time the funneled money is used Strictly for repairs

How we would use it: To repair our gear without allowing any one person access to a bunch of free funds.

Since this falls under perks, it’s not a major priority, but it would be a useful addition to guilds. Not as useful as, say, separated guild permissions, but still useful.