The new Guild UI and Permissions...yikes (Part 1)

Community General Discussion
2046
Bump. Y'all already know my stance on this.
2047
11/06/2018 10:48 AMPosted by Venjin
I #vote to revert guild rank permissions to their previous state.


Not many more ways we can say it....how about some feedback coming from the other direction...?
2048
I'm still doing my read-through. The tone of the posts is becoming more frustrated (not surprising). Most are still begging for a reversion. Some are just bumps.

Here is one from page 44 with some very comprehensive suggestions for guild UI improvements:
08/01/2018 09:30 PMPosted by Restomak
While we're on the topic, I'd like to add some more constructive criticism about guild interfaces. This isn't jumping on the bandwagon for anti-communities (though I'll reiterate my previous posts shortly and say permissions need to be reinstated and these terrible bugs need fixing), but adding new suggestions to give devs more to think about:

The guild news system is very out-of-date and could use some touching up. It automatically tracks the following:

Tracks:
• Current content epics and legendaries
• Leveling (also automatically stickies these), PvP (some of these are automatically stickied) and reputation achievements
• Guild boss kills (automatically stickies end-boss kills)

Now I could be missing something else, but this means that there's a lot of stuff missing from this list. For example, there's no tracking of raid, pet battle or many other achievements. There's no way to turn off the automatic stickying of someone's alt hitting level 60, and there's no way to automatically sticky some other things (such as looted legendaries).

Here's what I'd love, if we had some options for added control:
• Options to auto-sticky types of information, or turn off others
• Ability to show/hide certain types of information (for example, disabling even tracking achievements for hitting level 80, or ability to turn on tracking mount-gain achievements)
• Guild permissions that allow you to choose which ranks can mess with the above controls
• And an extreme: filters that players can personally turn on/off if they want to show/hide certain things in the guild news.

Finally, I believe it was mentioned previously in the thread; it would be a wonderful idea if we could have a way of making the GMotD more in-your-face so that members actually see it (and perhaps an option to disable that if some find it too intrusive). The old, old guild roster actually used to have the GMotD on the same tab as the member list - I've never since had people see the GMotD as much as then.

As I mentioned in my post about possible additions to Guild Halls, I like the idea of having a way to track various achievements and player's contributions to them. Guild leaders could set up weekly contests focused on various achieves the guild wants to complete. Of course, that could be done now, but it would be very difficult and time-consuming to track each member's contributions. A tab in the UI, or my idea of a "Leader Board" in the guild hall, would be a great tool for such events.
2049
BlizzCon is over and still nothing...hmm...they might be cryin' about the 7% drop in their stock price over Diablo players being *very* disappointed...
2050
11/06/2018 06:56 PMPosted by Fumel
I'm still doing my read-through. The tone of the posts is becoming more frustrated (not surprising). Most are still begging for a reversion. Some are just bumps.


It's actually a living record of our evolving attitude and a literal chart of the level of frustration from those who are still here. A very fascinating read on the whole.
2051
Dear Blizzard,

"There is still good in you, I can feel it." --Luke Skywalker

Unfortunately, the perception of Morhaime's legacy and Brack's rise to power is forever tarnished with things in such a state.
We've been saying all along that there is a lack of communication--there is not. There is a lack of meaningful dialogue.

Ion is communicating himself all over the place, telling us how excited he is for upcoming content--brushing aside most of our legitimate concerns as he tries to pat himself on the back. Like a true politician, he talks through all of the Q&A sessions and still says absolutely nothing.

I'm excited about some of the upcoming changes (mostly from the technical side--how the Hell does a wildly successful game like WoW still only run on one CPU core?), and I'm stoked to see where the story goes... but it's not enough to remain successful if the broken state of things are not addressed--and if we continue to feel ignored.

Blizzard, my guild is still broken. I again, had to pass on an opportunity to grow my guild because you took away my ability to manage personnel and assets effectively. I had an acquaintance come back to play (gone since BC). I cannot recruit without restoration of granular permissions--there's no incentive for anyone to join.

#PerceptionIsParamount in any public-facing business model--and Blizzard, I'm feeling pretty ignored, and I'm not alone.

Perception:

Blizzcon 2018 made one thing abundantly clear

Blizzard | Player-base... #OutOfTouch

Want proof of that, Blizzard? Just ask any devoted Diablo fan right now.
1 Like
2052
11/06/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Beyzen
Me and my Co-Gm had a serious conversation about quitting with the guild grind all together yesterday.


My leadership team and I are having that discussion on Friday. I can't believe I'm paying money every month to be treated like this.
1 Like
2053
11/07/2018 07:50 AMPosted by Mceuan
11/06/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Beyzen
Me and my Co-Gm had a serious conversation about quitting with the guild grind all together yesterday.


My leadership team and I are having that discussion on Friday. I can't believe I'm paying money every month to be treated like this.


I'd say my leadership group and I are going to have the same discussion.

Except we aren't

They've already decided that BfA wasn't worth much of their time (or subscription money)

I only see some of my leadership now and then when they decide that the other games they are playing instead aren't fun for a little while and log onto Wow briefly.

Wow always held their attention and enthusiasm.

No longer.

Admittedly, it isn't simply the broken guild permissions/ui

It's deeper than that.

BfA is broken.

Badly.

Read the forums.

Blizzard, you need to wake up!

Stop listening to Ion (or whomever) and their apparent perception of Wow. It isn't real. He (or they) are Blizzard employee(s) ie: paid by you and likely saying all the right things and making everything look and sound peachy.

It isn't.

Listen instead to your players ie: your paying customers (what's left of them) who pay you real money every month, (at least for now) and pull your collective heads out of your collective behinds before it's to late.

I've played Wow since nearly the beginning. It used to always amuse me when I would read the noob conversations in trade chat about the latest so-called "Wow killer" game being developed or released soon that would "definitely kill Wow." The Elder Scrolls, Rift, Star Trek Online, etc...etc... to name only a few.

Who would have ever guessed that perhaps it would be Blizzard themselves who would be Wow's undoing.

Guild "control" is utterly useless to me in it's current state. (Why? See my many previous posts here on this thread)

For me, at this point, I simply want to know what if anything is going to be done about our broken guilds.

I need to know if I keep the shop open, or if it's finally time to lock the doors, dim the lights, and quietly retire.
2054
11/06/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Beyzen
Me and my Co-Gm had a serious conversation about quitting with the guild grind all together yesterday. We had come to the conclusion that the fun part of it for us was structuring a story based hierarchy and awarding those who deserved it with improved permissions.

Now to see that this thread is once again unlocked, I think I will wait some time before I give up all together, but do not tease us Blizz, is there something in the works?

ALSO, this has most likely been brought up, but can we get the permission back to allow members to create guild events. That was a big part of permissions, attainable only by certain ranks, and now everybody and their goldfish can create a guildwide event, if they are in the guild. its a mess.

Thanks!


This is precisely why I didn't develop this guild and why it's pretty much a bank guild for my alts and a few friends. I had at least 6 dedicated members going into the prepatch, and we were going to recruit hard and try to get more of our friends to come back.

But the guild changes axed those plans before they could even be attempted.

Not exaggerating when I say the guild changes are by far the most disappointing thing about BfA for me.
2055
I'm having troubles keeping my guildies engaged in addition to these asinine control changes.

The whole game just isn't holding them, despite successful pvp nights and some fun guild-only raids, they just don't wanna get on outside of scheduled events and I already sense waning interest.

Blizz, there's only so much I can do to encourage others to play your game, the least you can do is give me to tools to help organize my efforts to get you more money.
2056
Here is part of a post from page 45 critiquing the Community UI and how it meshes (or doesn't mesh) wit the guild UI. As before, if you want to see the entire post, click on the poster's name.
08/02/2018 08:02 AMPosted by Greenstone
The Community UI panel works but again its like an abomination with parts thrown in together for no real reason. The older panel presented more information about guild users, such as a complete list of who is exhaulted with the guild, how many users are on versus how many users are in the guild, in a smaller footprint. (Type /groster in game to see the smaller panel.)

Its true Guildmasters can have control over communities they create for themselves, and that is awesome, but in reality its meant for everyone to be able to use and create groups. Its basically a more visible form of channel creation in the game, which I illustrated earlier in this thread. This in essence makes it non-guild related interface, since players can create their own communities and do whatever they want with them.

Worse part is while communities seem related to guilds they can be used to undermine rather than support a guild. I illustrated this earlier by listing the abuses of such a system. So while the implementation of communities as they are works it does not work in conjunction with Guild Control so having them pushed together into one interface actually covers up the issues that come about.

For example: if I make people a leader / moderator of my community channel that does not necessarily mean they are leaders in the guild. Which is awesome, however the permissions that you guys set up in the guild controls seem to have wanted to tie up the two. You can't do that because not all players are officers in the guild.

So again please fix the permissions because it seems like the permissions were a jumble you had one way of thinking about communities and another about guilds and someone made a mistake or tried to implement the same set of rules for both and that doesn't work.

Revert the old permissions allow us to choose the old guild interface from a button at the bottom of the community panel and remove all the extra fluff of guilds in the community panel. Give us a solid separation between the two.

If later on you want to update the guild roster window you can do so but establish that communities and guild control are separate.
I confess I haven't once used the Communities feature. I have no idea how it works or how popular it is. I do use the guild UI daily, and find it much more awkward than it used to be. I think the two interfaces should never have been linked. Maybe then our permissions wouldn't have been destroyed.
2057
Y'know...

When Governments stop listening to its people and treat them like an expendable resource, the people revolt or rebel...

Unions strike, Hell the teachers in my state walked out on the job for two weeks during the school-year because nobody would listen or acknowledge there was a problem.

"Blue flu," used to happen on police forces when even their own union stopped listening to them...

I wonder... how much traction a, "WoW Walkout," would get? Not just for the broken guilds, or the broken state of the entirety of the rest of the game in its current state--but for the lack of attention Blizzard in general is giving its greatest resource, the paying subscriber?

I wonder how much convincing it would take for anyone that is disenchanted with the state of things, for any reason, to turn off their sub for 30 days--all of us, at the same time...

Of course, the realist in me says that it would take almost a full quarter of that for Blizz to even notice... But with perfect timing, we'd all stop paying right about now, so they would be paying attention because of the new patch when everything goes silent.

I still love this game--though now it's more for the memories we've created than anything relating to current content, context, or game-play.

This, Blizzard, this 104 page (and still counting--with relevant posts) thread that's still being completely ignored, is the writing on the wall.
1 Like
2058
11/08/2018 06:56 AMPosted by Roguewit
I wonder... how much traction a, "WoW Walkout," would get? Not just for the broken guilds, or the broken state of the entirety of the rest of the game in its current state--but for the lack of attention Blizzard in general is giving its greatest resource, the paying subscriber?

I wonder how much convincing it would take for anyone that is disenchanted with the state of things, for any reason, to turn off their sub for 30 days--all of us, at the same time...
I think people who are "disenchanted" walk away all the time. The thing is, not everyone is disenchanted with the same things, and not all at the same time.

Back in WoD (well after it launched), Blizzard announced that there would be no flying in that expansion or in any other expansions going forward. A great number of players walked away. Blizzard devs came up with Pathfinder. Many players were satisfied. Many were not.

Which just goes to show that even when a huge number of players are united in their dissatisfaction, enough that change was effected, people still couldn't agree on the outcome.

I personally am relying on the fact that Blizzard devs do want to make a good product. I don't think they're not giving us "paying subscribers" enough "attention". In fact, just wording their unresponsiveness that way makes the whole thing sound like we're two-year-olds throwing a tantrum.

I think they're aware of the guild issues. I also think there are other problems with WoW at the moment that Blizzard feels are more pressing to solve. I have hope that everything will get addressed eventually. I do wish they'd tell us they're working on it, but... /shrug.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue reading through this thread, highlighting posts I feel warrant a second look, commenting when I have something to say, and generally keeping the issue alive. Because the number one thing I don't want is for Blizzard to assume we've adjusted to these changes and it's okay not to do any further work on guilds.
1 Like
2059
That's it. I give up.

I just can't do it anymore.

I simply cannot tell the difference between Roguewit and Mceuan.
2060
While at Blizzcon I was able to have a nice, mostly private discussion (those halls are loud and busy!), with a Blizzard engineer and a couple other Blizzard folks. I expressed the collective displeasure of the changes to the guild interface, most importantly the permissions. I walked them through how the current settings violate basic security thinking in how one provides permissions to a varied group. I also described/reported the calendar sorting bug (sorts on level but no secondary sort on rank).

While I said I understood these changes came about because of the new Community feature, I opined the community feature, as implemented in game, is a thorough pain to use as you must invite individual characters and not via battle tags. While for groups set up outside the game you can use battle tags, the whole thing was set up not to accidentally allow horde into in-game alliance communities and vice versa. I suggested there must be a way to set a flag while using a battle tag in game to not invite horde toons into an alliance community and vice versa.

I also suggested that while the community feature was nice, Blizzard should just have bought Discord ;)

I was absolutely listened to and I suspect some items may be acted upon. Some of the fixes we want are running into resource constraints, I expect. Time will tell on if there are fixes or changes.

I want to be very clear that my conversation was not ignored. I even think notes were taken. Blizzard does listen. What they do not have is unlimited time and resources to tackle every problem. Sometimes you have to rack-n-stack.
3 Likes
2061
11/08/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Xakopane
While at Blizzcon I was able to have a nice, mostly private discussion (those halls are loud and busy!), with a Blizzard engineer and a couple other Blizzard folks. I expressed the collective displeasure of the changes to the guild interface, most importantly the permissions. I walked them through how the current settings violate basic security thinking in how one provides permissions to a varied group. I also described/reported the calendar sorting bug (sorts on level but no secondary sort on rank).

While I said I understood these changes came about because of the new Community feature, I opined the community feature, as implemented in game, is a thorough pain to use as you must invite individual characters and not via battle tags. While for groups set up outside the game you can use battle tags, the whole thing was set up not to accidentally allow horde into in-game alliance communities and vice versa. I suggested there must be a way to set a flag while using a battle tag in game to not invite horde toons into an alliance community and vice versa.

I also suggested that while the community feature was nice, Blizzard should just have bought Discord ;)

I was absolutely listened to and I suspect some items may be acted upon. Some of the fixes we want are running into resource constraints, I expect. Time will tell on if there are fixes or changes.

I want to be very clear that my conversation was not ignored. I even think notes were taken. Blizzard does listen. What they do not have is unlimited time and resources to tackle every problem. Sometimes you have to rack-n-stack.


I've suspected for awhile now that resource constraints may be playing a factor. I mean, seriously, look at all the other crud that needs working on with actual gameplay issues. No doubt there's a big sticky with "AZERITE AND HOW WE GET THE PLAYERS ON BOARD" somewhere in their war-room.

Thanks Xak for the heads up.
2062
11/08/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Xakopane
I want to be very clear that my conversation was not ignored. I even think notes were taken.
You're the real MVP. Thanks man.
2063
11/08/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Xakopane
I want to be very clear that my conversation was not ignored. I even think notes were taken. Blizzard does listen. What they do not have is unlimited time and resources to tackle every problem. Sometimes you have to rack-n-stack.
I've been thinking the problem is time/resources, too. There are much bigger fires to put out right now. The fact that they opened this thread again makes me think something will get done sometime.

Thanks so much for taking this issue straight to the people who can do something about it. You deserve a trophy. :)
2064
11/08/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Xakopane
I walked them through how the current settings violate basic security thinking in how one provides permissions to a varied group.


Thank you. I was a bit baffled when the new system seemed to completely disregard the principle of least privilege. It instantly left me thinking "That's not the correct way to do this."

It's a best practice that can be applied to many things, not just system admin work.
I feel that WoW's Guild features are something that this principle applies to and guilds can benefit from having this type of control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_privilege
2065
11/08/2018 07:29 AMPosted by Fumel
I think people who are "disenchanted" walk away all the time. The thing is, not everyone is disenchanted with the same things, and not all at the same time.

Agreed. But enough of us are disenchanted with several facets of this release--and again, the perception is that Blizzard is not even showing signs of slowing down to address any of these concerns. #PerceptionIsParamount

11/08/2018 07:29 AMPosted by Fumel
I personally am relying on the fact that Blizzard devs do want to make a good product. I don't think they're not giving us "paying subscribers" enough "attention". In fact, just wording their unresponsiveness that way makes the whole thing sound like we're two-year-olds throwing a tantrum.

While I'm also of the belief that Blizzard wants to make a quality product, it is possible to do so and still alienate their player-base (at first blush, Diablo Immortal appears to fit into the lore and feels cool enough that it should ultimately be successful--it is a quality product--but I bet the majority of the hard-core Diablo base refuses to play it on principle alone).

But my, "two-year-old tantrum," as you put it is not me throwing myself on the floor and holding my breath--I have to believe that Blizzard is keeping up with this thread, and a little PR would go a long way. As an IT Administrator, Systems Engineer, and Consultant, all my clients ever need to hear is that, "I understand your concerns, and I'm working toward a solid solution as quickly as possible."

"I'm right on top of that, Rose!" --Sue Ellen "Swell" Crandell (Don't Tell Mom, The Babysitter's Dead)

Then we perceive that our feedback is, in fact, being heard and taken into consideration--which helps to keep us on track in continuing to provide useful feedback.

11/08/2018 07:29 AMPosted by Fumel
I do wish they'd tell us they're working on it, but... /shrug.

Ultimately, that's all I'm really looking for, as well.

11/08/2018 07:29 AMPosted by Fumel
In the meantime, I'm going to continue reading through this thread, highlighting posts I feel warrant a second look, commenting when I have something to say, and generally keeping the issue alive.

Please do. I've been able to read a couple that I had missed because you saw fit to bring them downstream.

Just know that some of the rest of us are going to hold our breath till we're blue in the face once in a while ;-)

11/08/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Xakopane
While at Blizzcon I was able to have a nice, mostly private discussion (those halls are loud and busy!), with a Blizzard engineer and a couple other Blizzard folks. I expressed the collective displeasure of the changes to the guild interface, most importantly the permissions. I walked them through how the current settings violate basic security thinking in how one provides permissions to a varied group. I also described/reported the calendar sorting bug (sorts on level but no secondary sort on rank).

While I said I understood these changes came about because of the new Community feature, I opined the community feature, as implemented in game, is a thorough pain to use as you must invite individual characters and not via battle tags. While for groups set up outside the game you can use battle tags, the whole thing was set up not to accidentally allow horde into in-game alliance communities and vice versa. I suggested there must be a way to set a flag while using a battle tag in game to not invite horde toons into an alliance community and vice versa.

I also suggested that while the community feature was nice, Blizzard should just have bought Discord ;)

I was absolutely listened to and I suspect some items may be acted upon. Some of the fixes we want are running into resource constraints, I expect. Time will tell on if there are fixes or changes.

I want to be very clear that my conversation was not ignored. I even think notes were taken. Blizzard does listen. What they do not have is unlimited time and resources to tackle every problem. Sometimes you have to rack-n-stack.


That's awesome. In its entirety. At least there was the perception that Blizzard is working on it. They seem to have stumbled over some things, but I gotta hope they're working on getting their feet back under them--and will address the concerns expressed in this thread, as well as the umpteen other issues that currently plague this expansion.