The NEW! Fodder the flame ability

Classes Demon Hunter
1

I’m trying to see reasoning.
You take a class that is basically a speedster.
Aaaaaaannndddd you make an ability to make them fixed on one spot?

Not only that, but while your killing this demon. You lose DPS? Since your NOT hitting boss?

Is the blood pool massive at least?

Why can’t they just idk. Make it so we control an elite demon or something for 20 seconds.

2

They’ve stuck mages with rune of power for 8 years despite the pushback it gets. Blizzard class designers love abilities that force you to sit still.

3

And yet momentum is still present

4

Not that anybody is using it.

5

True its why they should trash it or make it a pvp talent at least there it might get some use

6

Making an ability that heavily constrains the mobility of an extremely mobile class that has one talent build purely focused on heavy instant movement in order to increase its DPS is so counter-intuitive it makes one think what those guys are smoking sometimes.

7

Momentum might make a decent return now that leech is nerfed, the new burning hatred that replaces demons bite now, and now with fel rush having ms in pvp. For sure there will be more momentum builds again. At least in pvp

8

I highly doubt Burning Hatred is going to replace Demon’s Bite ever. It swapped places with Demon Blades and it’s most likely a typo because they must have forgotten to move this part to Demon Blades. There’s just no way in hell Burning Hatred is ever going to replace it but Demon Blades isn’t.

Also please just kill Momentum already Blizzard and take Nemesis and Essence Break with you while you’re at it. There are still some more, but I want these gone ASAP.

9

I don’t know I guess we will have to see what happens with tuning. However, with demonic being nerfed slightly and leech being nerfed I definitely could see more DH going for a more on demand sustained damage build with momentum.

I do agree though essence break and nemesis can die in a fire. I used to enjoy momentum back in legion. I think fel rush should be used more for damage then just movement.

10

Momentum was good when it was fresh on a very easy raid such as Emerald Nightmare, but after we started doing harder raids and pushing higher keys the flaws were made very obvious. It doesn’t work on a heavily competitive environment, plain and simple. It’s too much work for little return and they can’t make the return too high because they risk making it blatantly overpowered.

Their answer was nerfing Demonic because the other two just cannot compete. They just can’t, so they make the better choice worse. Even then, I think Demonic will still be superior.

1 Like
11

Agreed, and I think this is counterintuitive with THIS particular covenant ability.
You have to zoom in and out of the blood pool if you’re momentum build, basically nullifying the whole point.

I just don’t get what they’re trying to do.

12

I doubt it. While I enjoyed Momentum in EN and the brief stint in BfA (due to the trait), it only worked because of how the bosses were laid out with tons of space. Mechanics wise DH got lucky during EN in Legion with bosses so accommodating, when you look at the raid tiers that came after however, its clear that momentum would straight out not work on a number of bosses. Even for mythic+ its to risky given how close some trash mobs are to each other. It really has no place in PvE anymore outside of maybe world content, which doesn’t justify keeping it around.

13

Lol Momentum is only good when you can Vengeful Retreat first. I just wish for once they would stop making gimmicky crap major talents and play styles.

What irks me even more is the first batch of DH fans were saying how amazing the class was because of this gimmick, “oooo so different, I can’t play anything else anymore”. Right, until they hit a wall in NH raid then the same people would call it a gimmick and should never have been a play style. Flip flopping bastards who can’t identify an issue at it’s inception are trash because COMMON SENSE would have told you something like this wouldn’t work out.

But hey, maybe it’s meant to be an open world and PVP talent. This game isn’t just M+ and Raiders.

14

It’s by far the worst ability and at this rate will probably be the least picked covenant for DHs.

Been through this with the mage, rune of power made me stop playing it in MoP. Just dont find it fun to be forced still while all your mechanics say “No” to standing still. Doesnt feel rewarding just feels punishing or less punishing if I time it perfectly but never good.

Just my opinion but definitely won’t be going that covenant on my DH strictly because of that ability.

15

I mean, an argument can be made that a skilled player will know when to properly time usage of the rune around expected movement mechanics, which are usually on some sort of a timer. Also, given that the ability now has something like an 8-10y radius around the center of the rune, it’s a lot more forgiving of movement these days. Still, I’m not thrilled about the ability myself, and never have been. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as it was back in MoP.

16

Legit wouldnt know I havent touched mage pve since XD. And idk… I feel like it’s less skill and more fight knowledge with rng luck depending on fight and its mechanics.

I guess for me the combination of that makes it feel.bad regardless of how well I did. But again. My experience was MoP which I guess was even less forgiving but either way for me it stopped feeling like skill and was more of a mini chore to find best time after x encounters then that was about it. But i can see your point to some degree. However if you have the skill to do it then it stops feeling like skill and more like a mini chore within each encounter as you progress.

17

Knowing a fight thoroughly, and being able to judge when to properly use an ability like that, is skill. And frankly, it applies to more than Rune. Nearly all casters (and even MM) benefit from timing their CDs when they are not going to be required to move much in the short term. Fire is actually relatively unique, in that Combustion frees them from movement concerns for the duration, since you’re only using instacasts and perhaps Scorch. I don’t see Rune as too much of an issue with that in mind, especially given how flexible it is nowadays with the large radius and the new modern Combustion mechanic.

Back in MoP, it was a different story. The Rune’s radius was more or less the size of the graphic, and Combustion required you to pre-spool on the target by tunneling it for a bit. Both were much more demanding that you stay stationary. Fire’s in a way different place these days. It’s still very much about Combustion (far too much, if you ask me), but Fire’s DPS cooldown phase is arguably the most flexible of the 3 mage specs, in terms of mobility, and one of the more flexible of ranged casters period, even with Rune in the mix.

Edit: to compare:

  • Balance: Celestial Alignment loses a fair chunk of its value if you can’t stand still to chain-cast. Streaking Stars helps, since you still get the benefit from alternative Moonfire and Sunfire casts, but you’re still losing a lot of value if you have to move.
  • Beast Mastery: lol, what are movement restrictions.
  • Marksmanship: If you can’t stand still to cast Aimed during Trueshot, you’re wasting the majority of its value. You need to be stationary for 60-70% of the duration, at very specific times, to optimize it, compared to ~21% stationary requirement during the rest of the rotation.
  • Arcane: You have to be planted the entire duration of your burn phase, with the exception of Arcane Missiles and Evocation if you take Slipstream. Arcane has essentially zero mobility during their burn phase, since casting Arcane Barrage during it dumps your arcane charges and thus is a massive DPS loss.
  • Frost: Icy Veins doesn’t change the rotation at all, it just increases your haste. However, like the normal Frost rotation, you pretty much have to stay planted to optimize it, especially if you’re running a no-lance build where the only instacast you have is a Flurry proc.
  • Shadow: Shadowfiend just deals damage and amplifies insanity generation, so not the most impactful. However, Voidform in general is severely punished if you have to move while it is active, especially if it’s for more than a Voidbolt GCD. Shadow is arguably the most punished of all ranged specs for having to move during their burst phase.
  • Elemental: Basically, Fire Elemental has very little interaction, just boosting Maelstrom gain a bit (which actually helps mobility by increasing how often you can use Earth Shock). However, with Storm Elemental talented, the shaman needs to stay planted and cast as many Lightning Bolts as possible to take advantage of the significant stacking cast time reduction from it.
  • Affliction: Once Darkglare is out, movement doesn’t matter as much, since Shadowbolt doesn’t interact with it. However, Aff does need to pre-spool by dumping all their shards into UA before casting Darkglare, requiring a period of 4-6s without moving to get all the casts off.
  • Demonology: Somewhat like Affliction, Demo doesn’t really interact with their Demonic Tyrant once it’s actually out, though they still gain benefit from summoning demons during the duration. However, if they are running Nether Portal, they have a very specific and exact rotation that requires essentially zero movement to properly maximize it. If they are running Demonic Consumption (currently the dominant talent), they have to pre-spool to get 2 or even 3 imp summons out back-to-back, requiring them to chain-cast for roughly 10-15s straight in order to properly line up the summons. If they are interrupted in the middle of that, they either have to take a significant damage hit on the Tyrant, or delay it and restart the sequence again.
  • Destruction: Summon Infernal substantially increases soul shard fragment generation, which requires the warlock to plant and cast Chaos Bolt much more often. However, they’re usually planted and chain-casting Incinerate anyway, so this isn’t that different from the normal rotation requirements. However, if you have to move and end up overcapping shards, you lose a big part of the benefit of the Infernal. If you’re running Supremacy + Dark Soul, movement during the Infernal’s lifespan can be extremely punishing, especially if it happens during the last 10s or so when Chaos Bolt is at its strongest.

So most ranged DPS take significant hits from movement during their burst phases, and nearly all of them are punished more than Fire even with Rune, and Fire without Rune sees zero movement restrictions at all.

Basically, Fire (and Rune) has come a long way from MoP.

18

But that’s kind of the point…movement is inherently apart of all classes not even just range. Abilities requiring you to stand still when your playing more stationary specs to begin already require that. Again not saying it isnt skill but it’s also not related the ability itself.

Like a pvper…you can be just as mechnically good but if you dont pay attention to opponents cds and your and there DRs your at a disadvantage. Is it skill? Sure. But selecting an ability that requires you not to move becomes far less about your skill so much as your fight knowledge once you’ve obtained a certain degree of skill with movement. Turret specs have been around long time. That ain’t new. Really, in my opinion, becomes less about skill and more about knowledge once you’ve obtained a certain degree of skill.

Not really specific to mage was just using it as an example of why it ends with just feeling punishing and not “skill”. Sure if you never raided with a turret spec I could understand. But if you did this same old same old just hyper focused and feels much worse for any error.

19

Fight knowledge is skill. Skill and experience are two sides of the same coin. Knowing when it is appropriate to use something and when it isn’t fundamentally hinges on knowing or at least being able to make a reliable guess on what’s coming up. How else would you define skill? Is it just the twitch reflexes and juking seen in PvP for you?

You keep saying that as if knowledge and skill are two entirely different things. Knowing when to turret and when to kite is just as much skill as having the reflexes to get in that quarter-second interrupt.

20

I guess what I’m trying to say is that skill involved is an afterthought if you’ve already obtained that level of skill in movement, fight mechanics, etc etc. It’s not fun, in my opinion, nor does it show a skill I wouldn’t normally already be doing anyways.

I mean sure on my BM hunter I don’t have to worry, but on something else like say elemental shaman movement will effect me far more. That’s a skill you have to hone or you won’t do good damage all the time. An ability that hyperdrives this inherent skill to be even further punishing then general movement already is isn’t interesting, new, or fun to me.

But hey, that’s just me. Maybe I’m wrong. But between the ability and the standard covenant ability everyone gets…Well if I was a betting man I wouldn’t bet this ability will be picked much.

I’m not saying it isn’t skill. I’m saying it’s not a new skill you need to learn and grow or “git gud”. It’s the same damn stuff you do now. It’s just more punishing for X seconds. That’s not fun or interesting to me, personally. I could of worded it better earlier. But that’s my point. I will not need to get better or learn anything new to use this skill. I’ll need to learn the fight so I know how to abuse/follow the fight to get the most DPS I can. That’s what every turret has to do. Creating interesting mechanics with abilities is fun. Rehashed and lazy design isn’t for me.