The Alliance version had the taurens attacking first once negotiations broke down.
And the first people they killed were explorers, while the league arent pushover they are not exactly a well armed force either. The problem was no one even knew at the times the frostwolves live there.
I always assume those wisp at beginning of the campaign were warning the orcs. Unfortunately it wasnt exactly an intelligible warning to the orcs.
Hey, if you did not know they were there, would you not try to find out why you were attacked first? Or try to explain that you did not know? I can see force being used if negotiations broke down, and defensive measures taken in the mean time, but as the initial response? no
Ahem, the explorers were not the league, they were known as the Stormpike Expidition or Stormpike guard.
Exactly, It might have been better to scout the area first and find out if it has been settled, if the scouting party did not return then chances are unfriendlies or powerful wild life were there, however Ironforge could have also scouted from the sky and possibly found the Frostwolves there and sent someone to try and work things out peacefully.
Hey, if you did not know they were there, would you not try to find out why you were attacked first? Or try to explain that you did not know? I can see force being used if negotiations broke down, but as the initial response? no
If I didnât know a historic enemy was near me and I was suddenly attacked by them, no I wouldnât try to âfind out whyâ first.
At least Exacitor is using the logic of only known orcs in the area were demon worshippers. The Frostwolves were more members of the New Horde and, likely, had little, if any, contact with non-human alliance forces. They were exiled from the Old Horde, likely during the first war (vs. Stormwind) or in the period of time between the first and second.
All clans have banners, if the dwarves recognized the one the Frostwolves use, then I can see the reaction, if not then whoops.
You assume the banners would be common knowledge except I doubt most actually knew about the Frostwolves. And even then probably have the barest knowledge of how that clan acted.
That doesnât seem at all relevant when someone attacks you.
All Iâm reading is what should of been instead of what was.
Actually, I was trying to come across more like if they recognized it from say the second war.
So the proper response is to strike back with equal or greater force? congrats, you just took a situation, while not ideal, and made it worse because, unless you succeed in wiping out the enemy completely you will only make the survivors fight back. To keep from getting too bad, these things need to be handled in either the first or second contact.
So the proper response is to strike back with equal or greater force?
As opposed to letting yourself be attacked with impunity? Appeasement is historically not the best policy.
Ah, I am seeing your issue, you are failing to see things that could counter âbeing attacked with impunityâ while still trying to get something worked out.
A defensive force with the appearance of enough strength could deter attacks. The Dwarves could have easily done this, even without trying to meet with the Frostwolves, and it would have at least painted them as the wronged party if the Frostwolves kept attacking.
Your attitude is more or less âeye for an eye, tooth for a toothâ which leads the world to be blind and toothless. One should never respond to aggression with aggression, beefing up defenses while looking for other avenues is always preferable. Only when all other avenues fail or close is when anyone attacked should strike back.
Eh, not really. Anduin tried that with Sylvanas and ultimately that strategy failed.
The very phrase âmorally grayâ is now a meme because of this expansion.
When I played from Vanillia to Wrath it actually was. The Horde, especially the Forsaken, mayâve been naughtier but they werenât outright evil. There was nuance. The Alliance felt like a credible threat that justified some dirty ish.
In BFA though? Christ. And itâs not like they left it at Teldrassil. Youâve Brennadam and Astranaar. One the Horde PC never hears of or sees in game. And in the ladder the Horde player could make sure there wasnât a single civilain casualty if they wanted.
Teldrassil wasnât enough? They had to create an alt universe Horde that murders orphans and works with Scourge remnants only the Alliance sees? Its so bizarre. Especially because the Alliance barely does anything all that concerning for a war. They say some mean things and try to kill you but thatâs perfectly acceptable behavior in a battle.
No, its not âeye for an eyeâ, and its not âmy issueâ. When you have a historic enemy you just fought two bloody wars with start attacking you again, you donât risk the lives of more messengers when theyâve already proven theyâll just send them back in bodybags. You fight them back because youâre under attack again.
âBut it wasnât the Frostwolvesâ. You donât know that.
I think thatâs the sort of argument the night elves/Alliance totally should have: something that makes perfect sense for them, but the other side didnât understand.
The sort of âHey, I put up signs!â -> âWell I canât read that language!â -> both sides are angry and feel they did nothing wrong.
Anduins problem was he needed to realize that there would be no peace with Sylvanas at the head of the Horde sooner.
Alright, then try this one on for size: If you see a race that you have fought against or has given you issues in the past come onto YOUR land, do you let them set up shop or do you try and get them off your land.
The frostwolves might not have fought against the Dwarves in a full fledged war, but they might have seen them before and alongside humans. For all they knew the dwarves could have been an allaince scouting party or forward advance.
What you are saying is the frostwolves should have let a potential enemy force come into their vally and do nothing. Hell, for all we know, the Dwarves might not have been noticed unless they were in areas the Frostwolves were using to hunt or, since Drekâthar is a shaman, he felt/heard the land cry out in pain from the Dwarves digging.
It is not clear who threw the first punch in Alterac, but the fact that both were there was enough to set up conflict between the 2.
While I liked Darkshore because, well it looked cool, the Forsaken being there as cackling villains kinda highlights how little Blizz cared about giving the Reds pathos.
Stromgarde at least had itâs own separate undead nation living in it. The Forsaken have been fighting in Arathi for over a decade and now theyâre homeless. Humans and Forsaken, both of whom could have had legitimate claim to Stromgarde, fighting over it would be some legitimate conflict of interest storytelling.
Instead though the Orcs are there to blow it up. And the Forsaken are doing villain monologues in Darkshore.
Iâm saying regardless of who threw the first punch, saying the people retaliating from an attack from a historic enemy is in the wrong is simply, wrong.
And I am trying to get across that when that is their first, and ONLY, response, they are painted in bad light.
To take the first part, if the Dwarves threw the first punch and the Frostwolves retaliated, would you still say that the Dwarves were in the right? Because if the Dwarves did strike first, Iâd be getting after the Frostwolves for not at least trying to meet with the expedition to work out boundaries or maybe offering to help the dwarves dig up artifacts in exchange for the dwarves leaving the valley.
If the Dwarves came into Alterac Valley and just attacked the Frostwolves, yes I would condemn that. I also would say the Frostwolves were completely in the right if they responded to an attack with force.
And either way, Iâd be expecting at least skirmishes while the leaders were trying to work things out, it is just the fact that neither side was willing to come to the table, even if their forces were fighting, that sets me on edge.