The Lack of Incentive to Finish Untimed Keys has Damaged Dungeon Gameplay

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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Unless people are playing with guilds or friends, keys are now abandoned quickly if people do not think the key is time-able. This is because untimed keys in Shadowlands only offer each player a 20% chance of actually getting loot. Thus, the vast majority of players in PUGs do not see a reason to finish struggling keys.

Even worse, key holders have learned just how bad it is to untime keys and now set ridiculous ilvl requirements like 200 ilvl and 700+ raider IO to do a +6, I know this, because this is what I do for my +6 keys. This is what my friends do. This is what everyone in my guilds have done. This happened in BFA, but it wasnt nearly as bad imo.

I appreciate the value and gameplay with regards to doing timed dungeons. I also think there is room for dungeon gameplay that rewards players who have spent many attempts and wipes to finally down bosses whilst mastering their mechanics. There is literally no worse feeling than finally downing a high key after many many many attempts (even maybe because of a teammate) only to not ANYTHING at all at the end of the dungeon besides 95 anima.

If loot is not to be offered, perhaps a currency of some sort that has SOME value.

Personally, I have always best learned boss mechanics through failure. Only through repeated deaths and dying during high keys do I master the most difficult bosses in WoW.

However, due to the consequences of not timing high keys, keys are abandoned now after one wipe. Instead of powering through a boss after several attempts (this is how players LEARN mechanics), players would rather just leave and hope to be carried in the next dungeon. Or just do a +10 mists instead.

Currently, only high keys really engage me as a player and really punish me from not doing mechanics correctly. Bosses like the 2nd boss of spires or the 3rd boss of plaguefall only become difficult during high keys. Regular mythics are too easy and mechanics can largely be ignored outside of heavily punishing effects. Players are not learning how to do these fights correctly in regular mythics.

Lastly, gearing is best done by spamming keys a player does not find challenging. Instead of doing challenging, engaging content it is far better for me to do easier keys that I know i can time easily thus my group can get more loot.

Overall, the dungeon gameplay loop has shifted overcoming high M+ dungeons (this often requires team communication and LEARNING mechanics) to spamming the highest possible key a group can overcome easily.

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These requirements are only ridiculous if nobody signing up meets them.

It’s basically the market in action. There are more people willing to sign up for someone else’s key than there are people trying to run their own keys. So it’s a buyer’s market.

The situation is really nothing to do with the difficulty of the dungeons, it’s more to do with people targeting specific loot. If you have a key for a dungeon that drops a sought-after piece of loot, then even people who outgear it and have .io experience way above it are going to be keen to sign up.

This is really evident in dungeons like De Other Side which drops the tank trinket, it’s never difficult to find an experienced tank for this dungeon who is just spamming it to try for a higher level Hakkar Scale.

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I don’t think your statement invalidates anything I said. I do think you bring up a good point though.

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why are people who don’t know boss mechanics attempting high keys

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A lot of the mechanics are barely noticeable until you see them on a high tyrannical key. Or the boss dies before the mechanic becomes relevant (e.g. Manastorms). It’s only when you get to higher keys that you need a strategy for them.

Some boss mechanics are just a lot more obvious than others. E.G. Dealer Xyexa’s arcane lightning debuff is something that most people don’t notice until it starts killing them, which it really only does once you start getting to 7 or higher tyrannical. It’s a lot less obvious than, say, dying to being 1 shot by a giant tentacle on Magrave in Plaguefall.

Keystone rng makes it so it’s still fairly likely that half the people you are playing with at 6-10 level haven’t seen a specific boss mechanics at a level where it’s relevant yet.

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The great vault is the incentive. M+ gives better great vault rewards than raids unless you are clearing Mythic. You need to finish, not time, 1, 4, and 10 12s, or 10s, or whatever level key you are doing. The ilvl for the gear you get from running the dungeon isn’t even good or at least it’s not the reason I am doing them.

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Barely any incentive to finish a TIMED key.

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some people need a good spanking…

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This. My point is that people havent seen the boss mechanics BECAUSE the higher keys (Where you learn the mechanics) are just abandoned.

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You don’t learn boss mechanics in high keys, period. There’s no arguing on that topic. You see every mechanic in low keys, if you chose to ignore it because it doesn’t hurt, then that’s on you. By the time you get to high keys, especially someone else’s high keys, you absolutely should already know what to do.

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I’m going to have to disagree. I didn’t even know there was a mechanic to interrupt the Manastorms until I got into a 10 tyrannical key. Just because you see the mechanic doesn’t mean you learn it. Learning often times comes from failure. If a mechanic can wipe the group, that is your best chance to learn it. And often times you don’t see that until you’re in a higher key.

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Then do it on your own key, with a group of guildies/friends. Don’t go into someone else’s key and mess it up, and don’t expect others to stay for your learning process.

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I mean you can set whatever you want, but i highly doubt anyone 700 will signup for a +6 unless it’s on their undergeared alt

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This is about the average IO I see for a +6-8 on ED

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Mechanics being barely noticeable meaning, the incoming damage isn’t relevant to them because they have a healer… whereas in difficult keys that damage is significant and they will either die or waste precious healer focus that should be placed instead on the unavoidable mechanics.

Its a lack of caring and competence, not the mechanic being hard to notice. I’ll watch the same guy stand in the Gargoyle ground eruption 5 times in a row on low dungeons, which is a 1 shot on high keys. Is the mechanic not noticeable? Of course its noticeable- its very obvious to see it. People who play high keys know that all avoidable mechanics must be avoided. People who don’t play high keys don’t pay attention to things like that and get carried- they queue for high keys because they want loot despite the fact they aren’t willing/interested in earning it. It’s greed, ignorance, and entitlement- plain and simple.

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Yeah that’s an example of an obvious mechanic.

I already gave examples of ones that aren’t, like Arcane Lightning on Dealer Xyexa - you won’t even notice this debuff on low keys.

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I think its really just the mentality not so much difficulty in noticing the spells. There are a couple that may be difficult to notice, but I don’t think thats the common thread/overarching reason people struggle with avoidable mechanics (IMO). People surf to the end of low dungeons, without taking mental notes or paying any real attention. Then suddenly they’ve gotten enough loot to queue for higher difficulty and they’re a potato. It’s like not paying attention in school then suddenly flopping when there are actual quizzes/tests.

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Yeah that is kind of what it’s like. The difference is that some people do learn from failing those mechanics at low keys, but those people still have to learn the less obvious mechanics when they happen at higher keys too.

I’ve had to explain arcane lightning to pretty much every group I’ve had in the 5-9 keystone range. But I haven’t had to explain things like Margrave Stradama’s tentacles. People generally know that one pretty well already.

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Everyone has a different skill level. You keep talking about high keys but ‘high keys’ are relative statements. Assigning laziness or entitlement to players struggling with mechanics is not only disengenuous, it’s actually a remarkably pathetic statement. What- because you hit high keys you are now therefore not a lazy, entitled person? Comments like these just scream insecurity, and a desire to make one self feel better by putting others down.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss how the gameplay loop rewards doing content a player finds easier, rather than pushing as high a key possible. Whether a player finds +10 easy or +5 easy or +15 easy is really irrelevant. Obviously, a player should be doing all mechanics perfectly but not everyone is there yet. Most tanks I have played with dont realize the summoned explosion ooze on the first boss of plaguefall takes less damage when the boss is far away. Little things like this make a difference, but why kite the boss away when you can just cleave him wtih the oozes up to +8? It’s actually faster, overall, this way if you can do it.

Overall, this discussion was about game design. Not about how you feel you are better than others.

I really hate world of warcraft players on the whole.

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People queueing for high difficulty dungeons in a timer based reward system who don’t know basic mechanics are in fact greedy, entitled, and lazy. They risk all of the other player’s time and progression (using the term progression loosely given current M+ rewards). Some people have a hard time swallowing that pill and expect the rest of the people who did put in the time to just sit there and be silent. TBH the only insecurity comes across with those who have an issue accepting the truth- whether you like it or not is irrelevant.

You’re twisting the conversation into something it isn’t. Please see below:

Players aren’t supposed to be learning the mechanics on high keys. They should have learned them in M0 and low keys. What you said about people having not seen boss mechanics prior to high keys simply isn’t true. The way you’re dramaticizing the topic and trying to twist it into an attack towards anyone of sorts really falls into that complaint/triggered culture that really isn’t applicable here. It’s an objective dialogue that you’re getting offended by, which is your issue.

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