The Kaldorei Conundrum

Lore Story Forum
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Ah i remember we had this dance before, which is good because new ideas can come about. Still disagree with Night Elves bouncing back, and I still believe they were hit the hardest. NEs lost their world tree, which means new things were hitting them, age and diseases. On top of that the world being bigger than they knew. They never knew Eastern Kingdoms existed that was my take away from it during WC3-Classic WoW, unless that was retconned. That’s not something that can easily be bounced back from especially when it changes things that were set in stone 10,000 years ago, impossible to do it alone. Out of all the races I saw the Horde bouncing back the best with gaining new allies in WC3. That is until Stormwind got rebuilt in WoW.

What does this have to do with the subject? Well if we are arguing this, then chances are other people have. To the point where people probably argued this at Blizzard. Say Dave from the lore team arguing with Bob about this same subject, meanwhile Frank wondering what a Night Elf even is. No wonder Chris got burnt out and though time traveling was a good idea, and before that Cataclysm. He probably alone kept the lore team afloat.

Come to thinking about it due to this thought process, what I can only guess would fix the NEs is that Activision Blizzard needs to go down the Night Warrior route and stick with it with unity. Tyrande should never accept peace to the point that I think it may be time for Blizzard to make a third faction. Horde lead by Sylvanas vs Alliance lead by Tyrande vs Honorable Horde+Peaceful Alliance probaly lead by Anduin. Blizzard did say to wait and see, that’s the only good outcome I can think of so far. This may also fix the problematic plot we’re forcefully dugged in.

Oh and all that and of course continuity needs to be enforced as it is very important to the overall plot of well … every story since the dawn of stories.

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I think they went wrong because the current team is not of those whom made Night Elves in Wc3. So it is a bit of handing off the Baton in a relay scenario.

It seems they have misinterpreted the Night elves as tree hugging hippies, which yes, they love their trees… but will fight to the death and by any means possible to defend their beloved lands. They should have made them a bit more of an aggressive race on the alliance as far as being the group not afraid to go toe to toe with the horde more often to keep them in check.

Another mistake of the Night elves is that they put them in one big city, which is uncharacteristic of their nature… and it is a mile off darkshore, they seem to have a greater love for ashenvale than anything.

Another missed opportunity is that we never saw them recover ashenvale, and that the alliance never sent in troops to bolster their forces there. No wonder there is animosity at times.

I can understand the need to tone down the savagery so they are a bit more seem less with in the alliance, but it’s an opportunity missed at this point.

Going forward? I hope they recover, adapt, and thrive. Use the night warrior as their protector, elune “knights/paladins” I hope they regan strength with in the region… and have the alliance reinforce them. I’d personally like to see them centralize in ashenvale to protect the other lands they hold dear.

What I hope they do not do, is have the forsaken come out victorious and further shrink the Night Elf players’ morale per say. I’d hate for them to be banished from their homeland for the sake of the forsaken seemly being unbeatable. I hope they do not create a mad queen out of tyrande either.

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45

Deciding that humans were important and that Kaldorei should be their go to damsel in distress.

They seperate the Kaldorei, and maybe worgen, as far away from Anduin and his lawful stupid gary stue story as much as possible and let them be the power house they were in WC3

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46

Indeed, I’ve just seen a lot of the die-hard night elf fans take out their rage on Anduin, the Alliance, etc. Some even suggested the night elves break away from the Alliance when Anduin didn’t want to commit troops to the battle of Darkshore.

It all just seems misdirected, turning on our allies when faced with an existential threat that’s done more damage than the Legion is just silly.

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47

Night Elf main here since vanilla (War/DK/DH) going to try and add my perspective

Question #1- IMO not a single event but rather a long chain of events of the Kaldorei either playing 2nd fiddle/getting wrecked/made to look incompetent. A few examples in no particular order:

A Little Patience MoP scenario - Tyrande looks completely inept as a military commander so as to make Varian look awesome.

Ashenvale rework post-Cataclysm - Not only is there Horde is everywhere and basically doing whatever they want through the zone, but as a player there isn’t that much you can do about it. Sure you can complete the quests and fend off the attacks (ie. Astranaar) but as a NE player in particular not being able to chase the Horde all the way back to the Mor’Shan ramparts was infuriating. Especially when you consider the player-character at that point is a veteran of the Northrend campaign and should be eager to do so.

And of course the War of Thorns, which enough has already been said about.

Question #2 - I think this quote from Shandris sums it up. Not just for players, who want to see it, but since it’s coming from a fairly important character in the game I believe it’s an indication of what the Night Elves themselves want (no guarantee it’s what they’ll get though):
Shandris: “There must be vengeance for Teldrassil.”

Whether or not this is achieved, I think (should) play a large role in the structure of the Alliance, Horde and the system of the factions moving forward.

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48

Age wouldn’t be so much of an issue, because even without their immortality, they still have ridiculously long lifespans. Disease would be the big thing, but we really didn’t see to much of that, not enough to assume any kind of significant plague. Really, we can just assume it put the nelves on an even playing field with everyone else when it comes to immunities, and if we want to really reach for it, the resistance to nature damage from Vanillia might imply a natural resistance to poisons and diseases.

It really doesn’t make sense to say the nelves were hit the Hardest. Entire human Kingdoms were gone, the Kingdom of the High Elves was destroyed entirely, and pre-TBC, we had no reason to believe the High Elves would ever recover. The Orcs did not even have a Kingdom, they didn’t even have a home. Even during the Battle of Mount Hyjal, the Night Elves were the last line of defense, after the humans and orcs. I think you either under estimate how much more established and powerful the nelves were at this time compared to the others who stood to defend Nordrassil. Out of everyone there, the Night Elves were the only people who actually had a place to call home. The Tauren had not even fully settled Mulgore yet.

It was because we know now that there were Kaldorei old enough to remember pre-sundering Azeroth. And the Highborne sailing to settle Quel’thalas. Sure, they might not have been aware the extent of civilizations of Ek, maybe not even it’s shape, but they knew there was something out there.

Well, first, I never said it would be easy to bounce back, I said it would be easier for them to bounce back than any other race of Azeroth, because they were one of the few who came out of that conflict with a home still intact. Furthermore, I don’t see how anything really changed or had to change from the Long Vigil.

I attribute that to your Bias, because realistically, they would have the most difficult time. The Tauren barely escaped a war of extinction, the orcs was a large band of escaped prisoners, and the Darkspear had their island sink… They were all a group of refugees with noplace to call home. And while still in that feeble state, they had a civil War with the Warsong AND participated in Nordrassil’s defense.

realistically, they should not have recovered for decades.

So far the first thing we agree on lol. Though, I wouldn’t have Tyrande’s faction be called the Alliance. It’s aesthetic would be too different.

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49

I have seen a lot of evidence on the forums for a lot of support for the Night elves. May be purely anecdotal… but I hope blizz can straighten out the mess they created, it’s the second most popular race on the alliance behind humans. Part of this I believe is because the humans have more class options.

I am optimistic of tyrande being a complete Boss and wrecking the remaining horde on darkshore… but I’ll believe it when I see it.

Hopefully we see something more positive for us :slight_smile:

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50

You and Dhari are so brainwashed into being damsels for humans you actially excuse Anduin.

If it wasn’t for Anduin’s complete and utter idiocy of flooding Orgrimmar with spies, something he’ll never actually suffer reprecussions for despite the blood from WoT being on his hands just as thick as it is on Sylvanas’, then Tyrande never would have made the decision.

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51

By all means, if you want to be chaotic stupid and throw the broken remains of the Kaldorei at the entire Horde without Alliance backing, be my guest.

Or, you know, you could blame the people that actually invaded us and burned Teldrassil instead of allies that couldn’t arrive in time…

But that would be too damsel-ey.

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52

I’d rather blame the idiotic leadership that completely misread Sylvanas twice and got us in this dire predicament.

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53

Portals exist and mages teleport forces en masse constantly. Night Elves were left alone to be genocided because of Dev bias. Anduin made it easy for Sylvanas to feed him misinformation and he’ll never be made to suffer for creating the situation that brought about the War of Thorns. He is just as responsible. And then he used his crocodile tears to promise Tyrande that the Alliance would retake Darkshore and when the time came he revealed his lie. Conviently and suddenly stretched to thin.

No the Kaldorei army is still in tact and now buffed by Elune with the blessing of the Night Warrior. It was our civilians we lost not our fighters. The only piece we’re missing is our Mountain Giants and Blizzard should not only give them to use but let us use them and every other source of power we have to force the Horde out of Ashenvale permanently. And if they really want to restore our faith then let us burn the Crossroads and every civilian Horde that operates it.

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54

I think either Anduin or at least Shaw, planned for a lot of what we see in BfA to happen. I mean think about this for a moment: SW flood Ogrimmar with spies, basically has too many cooks in the kitchen, one is destined to be compromised while others stull gain the intel SW was looking for. They set themselves up for failure, then relayed their finding to Tyrande, who moves to intercept the Horde.

Its a diversion set up by the Horde, unsurprisingly because SI:7 spies were compromised, and Sylavans, as devious as she is, planned accordingly.

War of Thorns happen, both sides are blooded, Anduin drags his feet with military aid and civilian relief. Anduin uses the defeat of his allies to justify to retake long lost human holdings to the North (Gilneas and Lordaeron. Anduin personal friends who both have a claim to those holdings). With EK under Alliance control, his attention shifts to Kalimdor, where both the Alliance and Horde are reeling from the War of Thorns, Baine, Another Friend of Anduin, morally objects to the tactics employed by the very morally infamous Forsaken. The Alliance defeats a divided Horde easily, leaving only a very weakened Kaldorei, who very easily fall in line when SW consolidates their power in Kalimdor.

Anduin now has the Leaders of Kul Tiras, Lordaeron, Gilneas, Tyrande and Baine all in his corner, and under his unified banner, consolidates global dominance by the means of deception and at the cost of some non-human allies.

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I just want to see Anduin do something to help resolve the issue… He didn’t help in the beginning… but now he’s adding insult to injury by not putting any plan into action to help the Night elves… not getting the Draenei involved, not getting the dwarves involved, no humans?? Just the worgen, and that was against his wishes… after hitting the Zandalari where it hurts, he could be sending troops to help Tyrande…

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56

You’re falling into the trap that most people do when discussing lore in this game.

WoW follows the rule of cool, nothing more, nothing less. Portals matter when Jaina wants to blip all over the place, but are of no consequence when Varian and the Alliance are stranded on the broken shore or when the WoT began. And the night warrior is fine and all, But I doubt Blizzard will allow it to be more than a “rawr #savage” moment, considering Nathanos stands against and escapes from both Night Warrior Tyrande AND Malfurion, since 1 val’kyr is enough to equalize them. Flooding the enemy capital with spies is a sound tactic, the problem is sending your ENTIRE army halfway across the continent based off allied intelligence that may or may not be accurate.

Of course Anduin won’t suffer consequences, but I’m more concerned with Sylvanas suffering consequences, or the neutral night elf organizations that constantly stand by whenever the Horde decides to stick it to the night elves, it’s becoming a bi-expansion event at this rate, not a peep from the Cenarion.

And good luck with the mountain giants, for that, Blizzard will actually have to remember what WC 3 era night elf armies looked like, or consider the feelings of the Horde because god forbid night elves have anything unique or an advantage.

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57

You have to understand the animosity from the NE fan towards Anduin. Whether it’s necessary or not is besides the point.

He easily could find some spare forces to help and ally. Wild hammer dwarves, or maybe some spare SW forces… right now Kul’tiras is bearing the load in the seas.

But I do find it frustrating that the Night elves have lost their ability to call on the ancients and mountain giants to help in the fight. Right now the forsaken shouldn’t be anywhere near strong enough to hold them off in darkshore, especially with their commander being split on two fronts.

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I am far more receptive and willing to accept / understand the point phrased that way instead of being called a brainwashed human damsel. I see your point entirely this way.

I just focus on the necessity argument because I see Horde characters (primarily Sylvanas fans) standing in the sidelines going “Yeah! Damned humans, night elves would be so much better if they were independent…” as if they weren’t gleeful to see Teldrassil burn. This is why I just feel more focused on hurting the Horde for what was done.

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I mean, we could have been independent… but then again it would have probably made the Night elves unplayable and almost a villain faction by virtue that they were attacking anyone coming on their territory.

But the WoT has shown us that we cannot be completely independent. We fought well against the entire Horde without even back up from the worgen…

I just hope they don’t hand anymore losses and give an actual fist pump. Like reclaiming both darkshore and ashenvale. At this point we could use the reinforcements of the other alliance races. At this point it wouldn’t be weakness either, the night elves would be running the show still, just with back ups…

The alliance doesn’t help the night elves much… but the night elves help the alliance all the time. it feels like a one way street.

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While the Alliance helping night elves may feel like a one way street as far as BFA is concerned, the Alliance came down hard in Kalimdor during the fourth war, opening a front from the southern Barrens all the way to Stonetalon to relieve the night elves, even Tinker Town sends gnome demolitionists to help against the goblins in the Ashenvale - Stonetalon border, and the Draenei were helping in eastern Ashenvale.

There remains much to be seen in BFA, but we’ve been fighting together side by side for awhile now.

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I understand that, and it should have been shown to have that impact, but it didn’t seem to. The night elves were still large targets. Not trying to sound like the victim… but we do get hit up a lot. I really just would like to see that big win for the night elves, crossing my fingers :crossed_fingers:

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I completely share the same sentiment, I’m really hoping we get to see it, I’m a little disillusioned, but this game may have surprises yet! :crossed_fingers:

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