The Horde has to lose

I suppose there’s the other alternative (this one will REALLY get people mad lol).

The Horde permanently takes most of Kalimdor. The NEs are pushing hard and enter Ashenvale, only for the Mag’har to roll in and unleash Laughing Skull, Shattered Hand, and War Gronn onto them. Or, yah know, now that the Horde has no excuses not to have access to Iron Horde tech we could use that to push them back; or perhaps the Bilgewater and Forsaken forces in those territories could actually ACT like Forsaken and Bilgewater and scorched earth the crap out of Darkshore if they realize they couldn’t hold it (why are they committing to a straight up slug-fest)? Or … a combo of all of those?

By the looks of it the Naga are going to DESTROY the Alliance’s edge in naval power in 8.2 (and by the sounds of it Sylvie’s got a few tricks up her sleeve to get the Horde back in the game of this war). Who knows what could happen. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Yet you still think half the playerbase would be happy to select the red team on the menu screen, with this in the game?

Also: in what ways is it not a total loss with no pride? You imply that there is some way in which it isn’t.

The situations are in no way comparable. The second war was part of a single-player RTS, where the Horde was explicitly framed as the evil side (so the loss was probably not completely unexpected). The current war is part of a multiplayer MMO where players choose a team to be on. The teams are not sold as the good side and the evil side.

And that’s not even touching the fact that WC2 happened before the great paradigm shift that gave us the Alliance and Horde as they were at the start of WoW.

WC2 is not a reason for this to work.

Finally, I’ll park this quote from production director John Hight here, since it’s relevant to the discussion:

~https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-warcraft/wow-battle-for-azeroth-races

Inevitably, there has to be a winner and a loser. How will you ensure that players on the losing side don’t feel hard-done-by?

Well again, we’re not going to tell you how this all ends! There are going to be individual scenarios and battles where there’s a winner and a loser for sure, but those are the battles and not the war. We’re being very careful come the end of this that you’re not going to feel like you’ve chosen the wrong faction and that you’re with the losing side.

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I’m really bored of the Horde always losing, yo. Let them have this one, let’s see what happens.

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The guy turning a blind eye to genocide, in favor of staying home, and reading books?

The guy who has never been remotely Alliance for even a millisecond, and is largely seen as a criminal and demon by the Alliance race he’s affiliated with?

The guy actively handing out Azerite powerups to the Horde champion that’s complicit in genocide?

Baine is more of an Alliance character than any of these guys.

By this logic, Horde players shouldn’t get to dictate how much, or what form of retribution Alliance players recieve, unless you start paying our subs.

Not that I even remotely agree with the OP. For one, they don’t go nearly far enough. Secondly, the gentle slap on the wrist they propose, while underwhelming, is much, much more than what the Alliance will ever actually recieve and achieve, for both gameplay and financial reasons.

Everyone dies, and becomes Sylvanas’ loyal NuScourge. Her internal dialogue’s been pretty clear on that.

And the Horde shouldn’t get to destroy Alliance stuff, but here we all are.

The Horde has always had that antagonistic bent, short of finally purging the things I mentioned earlier, the Horde will always end up the antagonist.

And we know how this will go, the Horde will possible get some advantage only to lost at the 11th hour. No Villain in Warcraft’s history has managed to win in the long run.

Because they have been already doing it, At least this would give a logical story reason rather then gameplay convinces.

I have to agree that you are simply “not getting” the responses you have received.

You are basically asking that what the Blizzard has done to the Horde be extended into following expansions. It is not a way out. Even as a way to make a “new Horde” it is very bad way. It basically saddles any new Horde with the consequences of the villain bat that is working now.

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If Horde wins every Alliance race will die.

Sylvanas proved that with Teldrassil.

Question is how the Horde will lose or at least declare a ceasefire.
All clues indicate that Sylvanas is the sole person responsible and the Horde is not really at fault.

I find that idiotic myself its like saying H!tler was the villain and the poor SS was misunderstood. There has to be a consequence. Question is what.

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Legion was a popular expansion in spite of Allaince heavy focus. Whatit sacrificed in faction representation, they made up for class fantasy.

They story short cuts they pulled were dumb but overall they worked. Making an expansion was satisfying to both story nerds and casual player.

Meanwhile BFA story is full of controversy that has fractured the fan base, even more so then legion Allaince focus did.

Made worse by underdeveloped gameplay system and lack luster game mods ( looking at you Warfronts)

The only positive that people like are the allied races.

Point is, legion worked and BFA isn’t.

And it would be real crime to go back to status qua after the attempted Genocide of the nights elves.

Something needs to change, and horde is not going away. And rather not see drastic changes to the original factions system.

So the occupation would serve to justify the cities still standing while keeping Horde content still intact.

And give some level of justice for what has done to the Night elves.

I think it’s important that these new city guard make no effort to defend Horde Players from Alliance gankers, and when the Horde players die, /spit on their corpses.

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I know picking fun, but part of guards system would be justify cross factions grouping.

Essential where Allaince players can go into Orgrimmar in orde to interact with horde players.

I can Horde players been allowed the same cutesy to visit the Stormwind, but instead of guards the Horde would have an embassy.

A horde building in the city of blue to serve as thin justifications for the horde PC to interact with the locals. While the horde player is more an ambassador. Which would make sense with Baine as warchief.

Yes, Embassy would not exactly been fitting in a scenario where the horde loses the war. But it simple serve to represent Anduin peaceful nature to allow it.

I mean, it’s not like there’s going to be a ton of Horde characters who’d want to visit Stormwind.

Or, Horde characters at all. I think the survivors will be the ones abusing the racials for Mythics/Raiding, and it’s not like those types would care about the lore anyway.

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I made my point clearly enough in the other thread. I’m just popping back in to say this idea is still horrible and is the equivalent of a Human Paladin wet dream.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

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So, the better question is this. If the Alliance was in a position to put the Horde into a position like that, what’s stopping them from wiping out the Horde once and for all? Cause it’s not Anduin.

The title of “High King” is not going to stop the Worgen and Night Elves and Light Forged Draenei from purging the Forsaken totally and completely.

No Force on Azeroth is going to be able to spare the Orcs from the Humans (all variants), Night Elves, Dwarves (all variants), Draenei (all variants), Worgan and literally anyone else that suffered them during the first two Wars.

Quel’Thalas and Suramar would more than likely become vassal states, if they’re lucky . And that’s if Tyrande doesn’t purge the Nightborne.

Tauren might be accepted just based on their relationships with Anduin, Jaina and the Night Elves in general.

Troll are probably screwed. The Zandalari would be dismantled and the Darkspear would more than likely scatter to the wind.

It’s a two faction game. We can’t have one faction lose. Not only is your suggestion unreasonable (to the Horde players) but it’s unrealistic. If the Alliance was finally able to defeat the Horde, I doubt the leaders who have lived through every conflict with the Horde would allow them even the slightest possibility of them rising up again.

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The point is more open up the possible of it. Whether the horde players want to them is up them but at least it would provide allow the option for group meet ups.

Racials are something else entirely, I think that is a gameplay I would be fine with seeing gone.

Neither side is going to win, the stakes have been raised far too much at this point in terms of what happens if either factions really triumphs. It’s going to be a stalemate until the big bad shows up and forces them to work together, before anyone has a clear victory.

  • If the Horde wins it means annihilation for the Alliance. The three backbone Horde races in terms of numbers have zero qualms about destroying the land and/or wiping people out. There is absolutely nothing in terms of writing in the last several months that proves otherwise.

  • If the Alliance wins, logic will dictate that the only reasonable thing to do would be to completely dismantle the Horde as an entity. Anything less, given past history, would be complete and utter insanity in the context of the story we’ve been given. Pointing out Baine or Saurfang does nothing to change that, they actively contributed to the situation until it hit a point they didn’t like. They are at best incompetent.

And since neither of these logical outcomes of victory are actually viable, given that these are player factions, we’ll be given a scapegoat and a common enemy and it will be off the races.

Big bad will be defeated.

The Alliance (humans) and the Horde will go ‘Yeah we both did some bad things, huh guys? Let’s not fight anymore, and let bygones be bygones!’

And the night elves will rage ineffectually from under the bus.

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That’s is not really fitting with what the Allaince has done so far. They could have down so at SoO but didn’t.

For reasons that were so silly and so dumb that none of us want to see that again.

The fact is, the alliance is not the the horde nor does it have it tract record of reckless genocide.

It could easily be argued that the Occupation of the horde was the comprise demanded by Tyrande. The horde cities would not burn but would be given the fate that Sylanas has planed for Teldressal.

It Karma in that sense, and really the closes thing to justice that we can get without breaking the factions system entirely.

Who? You mean Genn “They aren’t that bad after all, it’s really Sylvanas that’s the problem, I don’t mean to defy you” Greymane. Jaina “attacking them while they’re mourning the death of their King makes us as bad as the Banshee Queen” Proudmoore?

I’m not saying you’re wrong, you aren’t. But Blizzard has certainly not given us any indication that the Alliance is anything other than 100% Anduin-ified. It’s sad really, because a slightly more blood-thirsty Alliance is not only justified but it’s sorely overdue. Are Alliance players really content to play the goody-two-show faction all the time? In my opinion that’s almost worse than being Villain-batted.

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I would love this idea, to play this comeback style setting from the evil, overlord, empire Alliance. Except there is one problem … Activision Blizzard.

Activision Blizzard has proven time and time again that they either don’t care or don’t have time to care. It being Activision and all being all about rushing out games before they’re finished and what just like EA. If Cataclysm and beyond happened differently I’d probably get behind this.

One can’t put stock into this idea after villain batting and villain batting, and retcon after retcon. Not to mention Legion being 90% Alliance focused. We wouldn’t make any comeback from this, we’d be permanently sidelined. Hell it probably will happen anyway given Velen’s visions that we will all serve under God Emperor Anduin and his Velen Sidekick.

It also doesn’t make sense, at this point the Alliance not wiping out the Horde and our races wouldn’t make sense. This time the Orcs and Forsaken will be eradicated, take no prisoners. Activision Blizzard wouldn’t take the time to write us back up, or write us in a good light. Everytime we get the spot light, we are villains. Everytime the Alliance gets the spot light, they’re the super duper good guys beyond the point of boredom.

In another universe or setting you’re idea would make sense. The Alliance would eventually gain more power than the Horde. In Cataclysm the Alliance keeps gaining power even after WotLK, faster than the Horde. Due to the fact the Alliance usually gains the spoils, refer to the Vindicaar. They best us, and your idea happens because the Alliance kept the “you filthy Horde savages!” roots.

That didn’t happen, instead we got the Horde returning to our WC2 roots for because the new team prefers that. WC3 didn’t matter and is essentially erased, we caused another genocide, and the Alliance has no reason to have kept us alive for this long that it doesn’t make sense and is rather insulting. Besting a foe until you realize they have both arms tied behind their back is insulting. Worse yet you’re beaten by said foe with both arms still tied behind their back is even worse. Horde Pride? Where is the pride in that?

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Here’s the problem…

For it to be the “evil overlord Alliance” one has to ignore that the Alliance is comprised of predominantly old nations who hadn’t needed to expand or conquer anything for centuries when the orcs first came and if anything, they need to do so even less now with their populations being repeatedly decimated by the past few decades of orcs, troggs, undead and demons depopulating city centers and countrysides.

Whereas the Horde is a growing power driven predominantly by young and rising nation-states looking for lands to conquer and settle while pushing out indigenous peoples in the process.

Just mechanically based on how they were founded, the Horde is basically an empire in search of lands to dominate, while the Alliance is a coalition of long-established kingdoms whose days of conquest are past, trying to hold onto what they’ve already had for hundreds or even thousands of years against a Horde that’s eager to grab any lands and resources it can, regardless of whom they belong to. The last time an Alliance kingdom fought a war of aggression was with the founding of Stormwind when they originally drove the Gurubashi down into Stranglethorn.

Unfortunately even at its best under Thrall, the modern Horde basically started as a landless army looking to take over someplace. That’s not a moral indictment; it’s just the circumstances they ended up being in after the orcs escaped the camps and fled the Eastern Kingdoms, and given the orcs’ disproportionate presence within the Horde, they’ve never completely shaken that mindset. By necessity that made it an aggressive invader of lands that other races had long ago already come to inhabit; it was just a question of who they would be attacking to stake their claim. Early on it was the likes of harpies, centaur and quillboar - basically natives with no allegiances to draw the ire of the Alliance when they were being culled - but then it became the night elves with the orcs’ constantly pushing into Ashenvale.

The Alliance nations used to be like that during their founding eras, but it’s been a long time since they emerged from their expansionist phase, pacified most of their holdings and became firmly rooted nations with borders they didn’t feel needed to grow any farther. The Troll Wars were a long time ago, and the humans and elves stopped actually trying to earnestly snuff out the Amani and Gurubashi once they’d been thoroughly trounced and kicked out of Lordaeron and Stormwind proper, respectively. They just kind of put up with such races still being around as a nuisance, marching in to smack down raids and the like, but otherwise only going all-out when a full-blown gnoll uprising or Gurubashi invasion took place.

Consequently, by default the Alliance ends up on the defensive because they don’t seriously want anything the Horde has that wasn’t taken from them in the first place. Especially in Kalimdor. The only reason they even set foot in Durotar or the Barrens at all is for military reasons, as none of the Alliance races hunger for the chance to resettle those places place with their own peoples. Why would they? The night elves nominally controlled Kalimdor for millennia and didn’t care to really inhabit anything east of Ashenvale or south of Feralas, and the Eastern Kingdoms nations have plenty of land to themselves. With the exception of Lordaeron - which was “taken from the Alliance” by the Scourge - the Horde’s lands are basically undesirable to the Alliance, so when Alliance troops are in them, it’s for strictly strategic reasons that end if the Horde stops being a threat.

Conversely, grabbing everything for themselves to live in and use is exactly what the Horde wants to do whenever it looks hungrily at the lands held by member states of the Alliance. It sees “weak” races squatting on land and resources that the Horde could be exploiting instead, and chafes at not being able to just take them away.

And unfortunately, that remains the case because the Horde is run by orcs and now Forsaken who all but run their societies on providing reasons for war and basically blackmail their more level-headed allies into dying in droves for them whenever they decide it’s time to start butchering the Alliance again. The tauren don’t need to conquer new lands. Neither do the blood elves. Nor the Darkspears. But it doesn’t matter, because the orcs and Forsaken (and frankly goblins as well) habitually use up everything they have and wreck their surroundings, then drag their allies along for the ride whenever they need to raid the Alliance’s pantry again to replace what they’ve wasted.

Loathe though I am to even suggest it, honestly a “time-skip” at some point might serve the world of Azeroth - and especially the Horde - well. Come back in a few decades when the Horde has learned to be a coalition of proper nations that doesn’t burn through the bounty of its lands so fast that it has to constantly conquer new ones. Because unlike the nations of the Alliance, nothing about the Horde makes me think “oh yeah, this can be viably sustained for hundreds of years.” Just the way the Horde functions as-is would burn itself out and collapse in a fraction of that time. They’re like a partially industrialized society without any of the pre-industrial cultural developments needed for industrialization to be supported. They’re comprised of overwhelmingly hunter-driven societies trying to operate on a scale that requires large-scale agriculture to work. Orgrimmar has no “Westfall” of its own, and the orcs show little to no inclination toward creating one. Human and dwarf farms dot the landscape wherever they live; orc farmers are an oddity that stands out because the very idea is so contrary to how orcs usually are. With or without the Alliance, the Horde as it exists now just can’t endure. Wipe out the Alliance next week and in a few decades you’d have the orcs and Forsaken turning on the rest of the Horde to seize resources after squandering their own to fuel the constant, unhindered expansion and despoiling of the land that would result from an Alliance-free world.

That said, I feel like in theory, a few decades with the Zandalari now on board could feasibly make a difference. They have something the rest of the Horde lacks: an ancient standard of densely populated urbanization without needing to be constantly at war to support it, and moreover, their society wasn’t recently devastated to the point of having to practically rebuild it from square one and they weren’t reliant upon unnatural fonts of magic to supplement regular food and water sources. They know how to be a real empire with a solid foundation that can stand the test of time, rather than a perpetually mobilized army pretending to be a nation as it basically forages off the land without a thought to how such an operation can be viably sustained and finds itself in effect having to constantly antagonize its neighbors and ricochet from one war to the next just to keep functioning.

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