Taping SHGY and having the majority of ally trapped north of IWB ends any offence alliance can mount. Unless of we have 15 rogue / 15 Druid composition.
In all the years of AV I’ve never seen a successful push that breaks that choke. In re-enforcement AV we can still win this turtle by not dying at all costs and whittling away at yours.
Do you have any proof to back up your claim that only so many ppl can rez at one gy at once?
Right, because the values are quantifiable in that capacity…
It’s not the cave, it’s the mindset. Alliance premades proved this already. Until the PvP minded Horde folks start switching over to Alliance, and PvE minded Alliance folks start switching over to Horde it’s gonna remain roflstomp valley.
mindset?
How does ones mind set over come
Horde can send 220 players to defend IB GY
Alliance can send 70 players (assuming we keep SH GY).
Are you actually saying that if I just think I can win somehow the game mechanics change to accommodate that?
How’s moving a cave going to fix Alliance not defending anything at all, ever?
If the map was fair then you’d find alliance playing differently.
When we could premade with players that wanted to overcome the horde advantage and still win we didn’t have a problem with AFK people.
Blizzard killed premades and we stopped playing leaving you with only the dregs. Until blizzard undoes the damage they did you’re never going to see quality PvP players back there.
I don’t think changing the map is going to make Alliance play differently but I agree with everything else you said. Alliance just don’t care for PvP as much as Horde do. Alliance treat it as a means to an end. The end being PvP gear for use in PvE.
yeah i know you didn’t read past the first line before jumping here to try to defend the horde.
if you carry the zug, you can see that 70 fits into 220 3x, and you get a zugzug of 10, which i rounded down to make it easy on your zugger.
One really easily learns the inequalities of AV after having joined the patch 1.10 PTR Grinder that was AV. It was literally just flat out waves of player crashing into each other 24/7.
Playing on Alliance feels like you are stuck in a box: bottlenecked in the SPGY valley, stuck in the road just north of IWB, funneled into the IBGY chokepoint, the ramp to RH. It’s really funny how you are literally fighting up hill on every one of those bottlenecks. Of course, calling them chokepoints for the horde would be a flat out lie.
Horde RH needs you to be forced to push alliance back so being stuck there is an advantage. IBGY has a small hill overlook of the road and you can bypass the offensive entirely by running through the GY itself. The road just north of SHGY has a cliff you can jump off and a side path you can use to be unmolested. At SPGY you can fight from both sides of the valley walls and just bypass the path directly from 2 directions. At least FWGY let’s you spread out on the defensive.
Question? Let’s say they do this (kinda remember it in retail about 8-10 years ago with RBG), but if they did and the Horde still won what then? Is it a map issue or a player issue. Horde come to play because of there long queue times, something that at the start of AV was only 2-3 minutes which says a lot of causal and PvE players dropped out once they got there mounts and epic gear.
The matches have been getting better since they removed queue dodging premade teams, and even better now that they got rid of some AFK and Bot’s. For the Alliance to take a graveyard on the current map you have to death ball from one location to one location. No Horde defense can break a death ball of 30+ Alliance and your initial attack on IBGY can break a Horde quickly. Offense blames Defense (yet only 10 people actually might try to defend), and Defense blames Offense for not sending enough back to help recapture IBGY before it’s capped.
Once you have hard capped IBGY then the horror begins as Horde start becoming extremely toxic. Offense stalls because as they die they can’t go north anymore and defense just goes into the feeding ground in small numbers. That’s when you will find some alliance back capping your territory from IBGY and back while also moving forward. I’ve seen games where Alliance are attacking the Frost wolf keep and Horde still trying to get back IBGY.
Game I just played, Alliance captured SFGY, then went for IBGY while Horde fought to get SFGY. Then Horde fought to get IBGY while Alliance retook SFGY. This went on for about 10 minutes until finally the Horde changed tactics and snagged SHGY forcing any Alliance that died to have a lot further to re-spawn. Graveyards have become the key to success, its unfortunate that people move to soon before it’s hard capped causing the team to have to re-spawn further back then they would like. Was a time Horde would yell about capping SFGY or SHGY for fear of a turtle, but now its essential if they don’t get taken we will lose.
Same happens if the Alliance takes IBGY. If we lose that and you have sufficient numbers to keep it from soft cap to hard cap. You have effectively won or dragged a match out that forces Horde to switch to a strategy we could effectively call a Hell Mary.
ZUGZUG!
Alliance wins the initial engagement plenty of times. Scattering and attrition are the bigger killers after that. Horde do better at staying grouped up, it’s true. Gotta 8v1 every fight possible.
A soft cap at segy is much harder to overturn than a soft cap at ibgy.
The relative distance between cave and ibgy vs spgy and segy is the reason.
If horde had to assault a soft cap at ibgy from fwgy it would on equal with se/sp.
I agree that once we hard cap ibgy it should be gg.
Sadly I’ve seen some amazingly pathetic ideas in our bg chat.
To be clear I do believe both sides have map advantages and disadvantages.
I believe ally advantages are more prevalent in the final stages of game and horde one more so in the initial stages.
I believe the biggest factor is que time and the will to win. If allies had same map and 1-2 hour ques we would find a way to overcome the initial disadvantage. If horde with their 1-2 hour ques had our start they would also overcome the initial disadvantage.
LOL numerical proof.
That’s hilarious
Yeah, ok. You and the OP are still wrong about needing to be 3x better, but whatever helps you sleep at night. I’ll take the zugzug to the QQ. 
Great calculations. So the problem is that the Alliance Cave is too far. Bring the alliance Cave closer to SH 
As a horde I think the cave should be moved. Not because I believe it will help the outcome, but I’m tired of seeing alliance blame the location on losing when the problem is participation and coordination. But next it will be horde racials, shamans, etc…
Op posted unbiased data driven numbers and the horde pushback is impressive. One horde poster, an undead rogue of all things, agreed it was unfair.
I was paying to be in premade AV discords?
News to me how many zero dollars did I pay?