Reviewing it, his affiliation with the Cult of the Damned wasn’t revealed until Burning Crusade, where in Old Hillsbrad Foothills we see him learning necromancy from Kel’thuzad.
This makes sense, as the ability to create/become Liches was the sole purview of the Scourge and Cult of the Damned at the time.
I figured this was disconnected.
Kel’thuzad studies necromancy in Dalaran.
Then he gets kicked out of the Kirin Tor.
Then Kel’thuzad goes to Northrend before coming back south to recruit for the Cult in disguise.
The Caverns of Time period he’s still wearing the colors of the Kirin Tor, using his identity, and seemingly professing he’s still with them.
I don’t think the Scourge/Cult was the sole source. But I would use this of evidence of that fact.
I don’t think he actually had gotten kicked out of the Kirin Tor officially. He abandoned it because he couldn’t practice his necromancy there.
Old Hillsbrad is weird. We also see the initial purification of the Ashbringer and hear rumors of the start of the plague but Kel’thuzad is right there. A lot of events happen at the same time that shouldn’t because Blizzard timeline.
That said, he directly acknowledges that he was Kel’thuzad’s apprentice (and proud of it) in Cataclysm.
Kel’thuzad’s appearance in his upcoming raid encounter in Sanctum of Domination I also believe uses the same human model for his spirit in his phylactery as the one we see in Old Hillsbrad (complete with Kirin Tor tabard), so it’s probably safe to say everything we see there is canon and maybe the infinite dragonflight was making the timeline weird so we saw multiple things happen at once when they were actually more distant.
Orc Necrolytes (both Shadow Council and Twilight’s Hammer) had necromancy too, they’re why Natalie Seline ended up how she is
They had necromancy, but they did not have Liches in the sense that the world is now understood. Their crowning achievement was the Death Knights.
Yes, we just rarely see actual Liches in general outside the Scourge.
Ultimately I think it is unclear.
Hecular could have just gotten a little knowledge from Kel’thuzad and gone from there.
Or he could have into the Cult and just defected after it went how it went.
Apparently Naberius is another non-Scourge Lich.
And Timolain the Accursed.
Morbent Fel might be.
The two signature creations of Kel’thuzad (which we now know is based on Maldraxxian knowledge given to him by the Lich King) are Liches and Abominations. While it’s possible for Liches to be unaffiliated with the Scourge or Cult of the Damned or for non-Cult of the Damned to construct Abominations, the source of the knowledge remains the same.
In the case of Timolain the Accursed, we know that he was secretly working with necromancy to create a “dark” Ashbringer, and we know that Naberius had a pre-established interest in necromancy as well. While it isn’t impossible that both of them learned how to become Liches independent of any knowledge gleaned from the Scourge or Cult of the Damned, that doesn’t seem plausible. Whether these two were current or ex-Cult of the Damned, they probably got their knowledge from the cult.
Morbent Fel is an interesting example, in part because he is named after a Lich from Warcraft 3. The fact that he can make himself into a Lich, and his affiliation with the Embalmer who can create Abominations, screams Cult of the Damned to me, especially since they’re so far south and there’s nowhere else they could have acquired that knowledge.
Anyway, as far as Helcular is concerned, he was definitely Kel’thuzad’s apprentice, and he boasts about it in Cataclysm. When he’s raised initially in Vanilla he attacks Southshore for his own reasons, not as part of the Forsaken. When we next see him in Cata, he’s joined the Forsaken, but that could easily be due to the fact that the Cult and Scourge were defeated and the Forsaken offered him the best opportunity to continue his studies.
When is that claimed? That these are Kel’thuzad’s creations. It seems patently false as Kil’jaeden created the first liches to serve the Lich King. He crafted them from the loyal followers that followed Ner’zhul in their flight from Draenor.
Unless you mean Kil’jaeden created the practice, then the Lich King taught Kel’thuzad it. Just the wording seemed odd.
I would just disagree. It seems very plausible to me that someone with magical skill and knowledge could figure out the path to a similar result.
The rarity of other Liches can be seen by what happens to Timolain and Helcular. Both are killed by humans that dislike necromancy. The former by Grand Inquisitor Isillien, the latter by a mob.
Not exactly; the original Scourge liches were the warlocks and (1st gen.) death knights who followed Ner’zhul into the portal at Karabor and ended up in Kil’jaeden’s hands. Kil’jaeden ripped their mortal bodies apart and remade them as liches, binding them to the will of the newly minted Lich King Ner’zhul.
Moreover since BfA it’s become evident that liches have been a part of forbidden troll necromancy for a while, with troll liches of varying degrees of ancientness being encountered in some quests and as rare mobs around Zandalar. Some are found to be connected to G’huun, but it wouldn’t be surprising if the practice originated from Mueh’zala, since Bwonsamdi seems to be pretty staunchly against the whole idea.
The trouble is that “Lich” means several things. It can mean “undead spellcaster” which would broadly apply to any undead that casts spells. It can also mean “anyone who has a phylactery that saves them from death” in which case most Warlocks qualify as Liches. It can also refer to the specific creature type in Warcraft that we see called a “Lich” which is the floating skeleton with the chains and the pharaoh hats and whatnot.
When I said “Lich” I was mostly referring to the creature type. The specific floating skeleton kind. Those Scourge affiliated Liches had their origins with the knowledge given to Kel’thuzad. The Liches that Kil’jaeden created are of the “undead spellcaster” variety, with their souls bound to specific objects. They are basically extremely powerful incorporeal ghosts.
So, Ner’zhul was also a Lich (hence the title “Lich King”) but not in the same way that Kel’thuzad or most of the ones we see in WoW were.
That would make sense, since that particular style of Lich is well understood at this point to be affiliated with Maldraxxus.
I disagree. Necromancy on Azeroth is very hard to simply learn on your own without some kind of higher power guiding you. Kel’thuzad was one of the most powerful sorcerers on the planet and had the Lich King’s whispers guiding him in his ear and he still could barely raise small animals and keep them animated for longer than a few minutes. It wasn’t until he went to Northrend and was personally blessed with the power of the Lich King that he was capable of raising large numbers of undead and creating undead constructs. His knowledge of how to ascend to a Lich (and his ability to guide Arthas through the necessary steps) also came from this.
It was considered a “dead” (no pun intended) school of magic until interest in it was revitalized in the First and Second Wars via the Orcs widespread and effective use of it, proving that it was more feasible than had been thought. Both Kel’thuzad and Natalie Seline drew their inspiration from the Orc warlocks and necrolytes.
Edit: Funnily enough, the “ghostly” Liches that Kil’jaeden created seem more like the wheelhouse of the Jailer, considering the widespread practice in the Maw of infusing and animating suits of armor with the souls of the dead to create Mawsworn.
Meryl Felstorm apparently raised himself with his own magic after death, according to Wowpedia. So at least one of them has been around for almost 3k years.
I think the most commonly accepted definition of Lich is a person with necromantic abilities that is undead and tied to a phylactery.
Hence why a Warlock isn’t typically considered a Lich.
I believe the Liches that Kil’jaeden bound were of the creature type. I think the Lich King is the exception in that he’s more The King of Liches than A King that is a Lich.
The Warcraft 3 Manual further backs this up.
Ner’zhul’s loyal death knights and warlock followers were also transformed by the demon’s chaotic energies. The wicked spell casters were ripped apart and remade as skeletal Liches. The demons had ensured that even in death, Ner’zhul’s followers would serve him unquestioningly.
Undead Hero Units
Lich
While on Draenor, Ner’zhul commanded a number of orcish warlocks and spellwielding death knights. Yet, when Kil’jaeden and the Legion captured these sorcerers after that world’s destruction, they were transformed into twisted, spectral aberrations of their former selves. These newly born liches possessed tremendous magical powers, yet their immortal, undead bodies were bound to the iron will of Ner’zhul. As payment for their undying loyalty to Ner’zhul, the Lich King granted them control over the furious elements of Northrend. Now, the liches wield frost magic along with their own considerable necromantic spells.
So I don’t know where you’re getting the idea the liches that Kil’jaeden made were very different when the Warcraft 3 manual and visuals are the same.
Kel’thuzad also had a small quantity of time and had to go to greater lengths of secrecy because of his position.
I’m not claiming it would be easy. But very plausible for a gifted individual who has the time to devote to it. The Horde revitalized interest, certainly. And it took off from there.
Also, apparently Troll Liches are a thing on Zuldazar.
He made himself undead, but not a Lich (unless “Lich” just means “undead spellcaster.”) He also had no phylactery.
True, but I thought the topic had shifted to just necromancy in general being a dead art and something you needed outside assistance in learning.
The trouble is that while what you’re describing sounds like the creature type, we don’t actually see any Orc turned Liches of that sort. The only Orc-turned-Lich that we know of is Ner’zhul.
In Warcraft 3, unless I’m remembering incorrectly, we don’t see any Liches until Kel’thuzad is revived.
It’s true that he’s an anomaly in that regard. We don’t know how he became undead or why he was the only one on record to have done it prior to the coming of the Scourge.
This was around the time Kathrana’tir was messing around on Azeroth. Maybe he had something to do with it.
We don’t see it, but we’re directly told the Liches in Warcraft 3 are of that type.
All the names ones could be / should be / likely are Orcs.
If the manual is saying ‘Liches are Orcs turned into these units’ and we see those units, that means those units in Warcraft 3 are Orcs baring the exceptions like Kel’thuzad.
We do see some Liches before Kel’thuzad is revived.
Well, I don’t know what to tell you since it’s hard to reconcile with what we see in the game. Add it onto the pile of unclear things in WoW lore.
The point remains though that all Liches (of the creature type) of that era in the Eastern Kingdoms were affiliated with the Scourge in some way.