Yeah, but based on merit. Or nepotism, idk. Point is, it isn’t hereditary.
And for the record, I have no issues with monarchies in fantasy. In fact, I think it’s iconic to the genre. But if we’re gonna dunk on one system for it’s supposed inherent problem, why are we completely ignoring the very similar problems with the others?
Which is a fault that lies somewhat with the writing and the urge to streamline the process within the story.
Historically, with any system like the horde, the designation of a successor was just the beginning. The successor then had to win the support of the clans/tribes/cults in order to gain legitimacy and frequently would have to contend with a rival. It was only with numerical superiority in supporters and a demonstration of power/wisdom in office that they could maintain that office. Even kings allegedly chosen by god(s) could run into the same issues.
Winding back to OP’s original post, I don’t particularly care to see the Horde written like Klingons. The whole honor and tradition and blood feud thing suits Orcs (and Dwarves) better than the Horde as a whole.
The real problem with the writing is that they constantly try to make the Horde out to be as homogenous and unified as the Alliance, especially during expansions that focus on faction war, but the truth is that the Horde is much more divided and frankly diverse than the Alliance ever was.
The problem with Garrosh’s war on the Alliance or the War of Thorns was not that they were acts of aggression or even that they were objectively evil, it was that there was no nuance to them. You had Tauren Druids and Troll Shaman working side by side with Blight throwing Forsaken shock troops and Black Rock Orcs that had formerly worked in Rend and Maim tearing up the natural world and slaughtering innocents. It was completely tone deaf and one sided for the purpose of generating a conflict that should have been limited to only small pets of the faction rather than the faction as a whole.
Having token conscientious objectors like Vol’jin in MoP or Saurfang in BFA doesn’t help matters either. It makes them look like they’re just ‘one of the good ones’ that are standing against the Horde rather than representing a real part of the faction that wouldn’t logically have anything to do with the actions that the writers force them to be complicit with.
If the only way that they can think to show a member of the Horde being ‘good’ is to have them bend over backwards to be friendly with the Alliance like Baine and Thrall, then it’s not a matter of the Horde needing to be written as an honorable and different kind of hero, it’s a matter of them needing to be shown to have any kind of autonomy at all.
Both factions would benefit from having their own self contained storylines, separate from the other faction, that explores their own internal conflicts and differences in greater detail. Not - I must emphasize - as a way to bring the other races in line with some greater faction norm (we don’t need another ‘patience Tyrande’ moment) but rather to give the individual races a chance to establish their own outlook on their own factions and engage with them rather than being mere interchangeable cogs that can be swapped in or out without it making any real difference to the writers.
I do love Worf. I forget what episode it’s in, but it’s mentioned somebody died at a ripe old age in their sleep and Worf reacts with abject horror. Klingons want to die in battle so that’s like the most disturbing way a person can go to them.
As for the Horde I think Metzen framed it pretty well. He said the Alliance is like Captain America and the Horde is like Wolverine.
And I think that would be a good rule of thumb for writing the Horde. Wolverine gets mistaken for an anti hero a lot. But he’s not really one because his motivations are usually heroic. He’s just kinda belligerent about it, and his skill set is extremely brutal.
And I do think this is how the Horde comes off when written well. In Legion, while the characters weren’t wearing their faction hats, you’d often see a bit more savagery and weirdness from the Red PC races. Not up to no good, well not any more than the Class Hall already was, but clearly enjoying the carnage a bit more.
This is pretty well done in the Uncrowned. Where Voss giggles to herself while thoroughly vivisecting a Legion homunculus and seems pretty jazzed to leave the base and cut some throats.
And in the KotEB. Where you’ve Nazgrim barking orders at ghouls. He’s aware they obey his commands telepathically so all of this is completely superfluous. But he’s an Orc drill sergeant. Birds chirp, wolves howl, Orc drill sergeants scream commands. He can’t help it.
I think Blizzard was on to something with the Huojin and Tushui philosophies, really leaning into the older Jedi/Sith lore of not being about good vs evil, but about idealism vs practicality and logic vs passion.
The way of the Tushui is one of a principled life. Followers of this discipline believe there is a moral certainty to the world: one correct path of right and wrong. These Values are immutable, and must be preserved no matter what the cost. Even if it means self sacrifice, or painful losses in the pursuit of a higher ideal.
The Path of the Huojin is marked by practical and decisive action. Followers of this discipline believe that morals and ideals are not absolute but change with circumstances. As such, a Huojin Master must remain flexible in his or her thinking, always evaluating the greater good.
I think that’s a fine idea. I like Wolverine; he’s not as upstanding as Cyclops of Professor X, but he always tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, up until recently, things have been feeling more like they’re being run by Magneto or Apocalypse.
More than anything, I think the writers just need to get a solid grasp on what the Horde’s personality is, what they will - and will not - do.
Pandaren lore? In THIS video game? What blasphemy!
But if you wanna, you know, pass some of that under the table… I’d pay for it.
Widly inappropriate and I hope more people report you and you get banned.
Which inherently actually demonstrates they think the Horde should play second or even third fiddle to the Alliance lol
Wolverine is a prominent character within the larger X-Men, while Captain America is the main central figure in the “core” Avengers, who in turn are more central to Marvel than X-Men for the most part.
It should instead be, Alliance is the Avengers (a bunch of Earthlings with powers or abilities) while Horde is Justice League (some Humans, a bunch of Aliens, and a bunch of Demi-Gods/NonHumans/Monsters)
But they refuse lol
Putting aside that it’s clearly a comparison of characters themes and ideologies to the factions first and foremost…
It depends what you’re interpreting as “central” to Marvel. Because for most of the 70s-90s? The X-Men were among Marvels most dominate brands in comics if not the most dominate brand they had. The Avengers by contrast, while usually present in the universe in some capacity, didn’t have near the audience pull or recognition. Frankly if it wasn’t for the bankruptcy Marvel went through in the late 90s/early 00s requiring them to sell off media licenses for a lot of their then most popular characters? We’d have probably never seen the shift in popular awareness of Marvels other brands that started in 2008.
Sure but Metzen said that in 2011.
Yeah. And it’s Metzen who said it. Dude has been into fantasy, D&D, comics and all that good nerd stuff going back decades. Well before Blizzard, well before the X-Men got the boot out of Marvels limelight. If he’s making a comparison to the Horde and the X-Men? It’s not to imply the former is a second fiddle faction.
I guess. But Wolverine is also a much more popular character than Captain America. Or at least was before the MCU.
And I can see why. What do you want to be Captain “I’ll have her home by 9, sir” or;
I mean personally I love the Horde because they do seem like the sorts to chat outside a dive bar over neat whiskey and cigars.
While the Alliance is the person who left after a single tropical drink because they’ve to attend Church before going to work tomorrow.
And the Horde is a disparate gaggle of losers, which is the best part. The Tauren are there reminding everyone to drink water. The Forsaken took off running already because they stabbed someone. The Sin’Dorei are drunk crying and trying to read poetry to a quietly horrified woman. The Goblins are in the bar, stone cold sober and hustling a pool match. The Orcs are already arrested for finishing 2 fights and starting a third. And the Trolls are high out of their mind, talking to anyone who’ll listen about how there’s a God of garbage.
The only reason he said Captain America and Wolverine instead of Cyclops and Wolverine is because he knew all the Alliance people would be grievously offended at being compared to Cyclops XD
I don’t like looking at the horde as good vs evil or honorable vs pragmatic. I like looking at the Horde through a group trying to survive and how each member goes about it and contributes to it.
Orcs can bring fierce warriors who fight for honor and bring mastery of the elements through their shaman.
Goblins bring in their explosive technology and can build global trust through trade.
Blood Elves bring in arcane might and cunning veterans from countless conflict.
Personally I don’t like putting the entire faction in certain boxes that the wildly different races can’t fit in.
I think the important part is not making the Alliance overly idealistic. Medieval Europeans weren’t exactly noblebright fantasy story civilizations, where everything evil is done by mustache twirlers or a king of the group that represents all the meaningful bad in the setting.
I think they make a token acknowledgement of some of the Alliance’s (or rather, Stormwind’s) darker elements with the Westfall quests: starving refugees, public dissent, that sort of thing. But largely, I think the Alliance is meant to be the “shining beacon of good” faction for people who like their 80’s high fantasy. And if that’s what somebody wants, I’m glad they have that option.
I’d just like to have the opportunity to play more of an anti-hero without running the risk of periodically turning into a Decepticon.
Bit late for that.
One of the reasons I find Stormwind to be the least engaging kingdom in the fantasy genre is because all wrongdoing was caused by dragons or Cthulu or a demon.
They’re never just terrible. They are paradoxically the least human feeling faction in the game.
Reminds somewhat me of the version of Sir Galahad from The Once and Future King version of the Knights of the Round Table- he’s the bravest, best, more pure of all the knights. And everyone else is creeped out by him, because he’s so inhumanly perfect that no one can relate to him on a human level. Except Blizzard of course is playing the first part straight without realizing that that’s triggering the second part in some of their players.
The problem is the first does negatively effect the other. Having the capacity for flaws and grey in a setting where the other Faction is just saturated in flawless Moral Absolutism has essentially resulted in Blizz using those imperfection as excuses for Evil. Its gotten so bad they’ve essentially started defaulting to Good Race/Evil Race tropes, which are not the least bit subtly racist due to the method Blizz took to originally subvert those Evil Race tropes back in WC3-WotLK (hell, the still do it now. Look at “Zandalar Foreva!” attached to the EVIL races).
The Alliance is so pure and flawless they’ve been rendered an extremely passive, reactive force. Being so restricted by their own purity test they are even limited in how they are allowed to react. As a consequence though, the Horde is a deeply flawed, forced proactive force. That HAS to act despite a lack of motives (in part because the Alliance can never be allowed to give them any), or even the means to do so (because Blizz runs away from developing the Horde for bouts of the Villain Bat … but still gimmicks them into doing it anyway).
What creates problems is when you have a faction that is supposed to contrast with that, and contrasting with a shining beacon of good often means just being morally worse. And then you add faction animosity and it becomes a mess because its too difficult to find reasonable fault with such a group that isn’t payback for what you did to them.