The hidden control, power, influence that all Sentient Weapons provide to their forger

Firstly I would like to say that this is a very long post but it does go into a fare amount of speculation and conjecture. I have tried to make it so there are some aspects that clearly do link with information that is known; or alternatively could be feasibly seen to be something that might be deduced in someway from the sporadic and various snippets that have some level of information that may tie in with each other. In no way am I saying this is or isn’t the case but, I thought it might be something that others might consider or even reconsider in terms of the amount of control and power that certain individuals might have or have manipulated to have throughout the WOW Timeline.

The only entity/individual that capable of and even knows the process involved to forge Sentient Weapons such as Mourneblades within the Wow Universe is from what we have been made to believe is the PRIMUS exclusively. The reason we know this is because of the Shadowlands story arch that transpires between Zovaal and the Runecarver (The PRIMUS). In this story arch regardless of whether you take the concept that Zovaal is being dominated and controlled by the Primus (i.e. concept that the Primus is the True Jailer); or whether you believe that Zovaal was the Jailer and was using the Primus to achieve his own agenda the basis is the same.
In this story arch Zovaal manages to extract the required information from the Runecarver on the method required to forge a weapon capable of dominating or controlling its wielder to achieve the desired outcome of the original weapon crafter. This process was the information on the forging a new MOURNEBLADE and the only individual that had all the information and steps required to forge one was the RUNECARVER AKA The PRIMUS. Regardless of who was in control or manipulating the other the outcome was the same; the information needed was extracted by Zovaal which enabled him to create the Mourneblade that dominated and controlled Anduin. Zovaal didn’t pass the information in relation to this process to anyone else meaning that it was only himself and the Primus that knew it and with Zovaals death it leaves the only person who knows this process to be once again the PRIMUS exclusively and no one else in the Wow Universe.

Sire Denathrius was 100% also under the effects of DOMINATION by the PRIMUS and I think many have overlooked or missed a key aspect that points to this fact in game.

It was runes engraved on Sire Denathrius that controlled him but HIS SWORD - REMORNIA. They said that it was a SENTIENT weapon but, what are all sentient blades in reality including all the others we see in game? MOURNEBLADES and the only person that was and still is the only one capable of forging MOURNEBLADE weapons is THE PRIMUS. When these blades are forged we know that the Anima/Soul of a powerful entity is used to imbue the blade becoming the essence of the sentient aspect within the blade. However, we also know that as part of this process the actions of what this sentience does and attempts is part of the programming done during creation along with the various DOMINATION RUNES which is always inscribed on these blades.
So knowing that it was the PRIMUS that created Remornia for Sire Denathrius and the Primus having the ability to program it during creation to ensure the desired outcome in relation to what happens when the Mourneblade is used by the wielder. The Primus would have programmed the sentience within Remornia to control Sire Denathrius and ensure that he pursued a specific course of actions that aligned with the PRIMUS’s overall grand plan and desires. The Primus would have also been able to achieve this without Sire Denathrius being even aware that he was being dominated and controlled by his weapon. It is likely that he gave some level of freedom to Sire Denathrius but, controlled and made sure that he carried out the required actions needed for the Primus’s grand plan while being made to believe they were his own that he was making freely; ensuring that Sire Denathrius would be less likely to attempt to resist or fight against the domination effects of the MOURNEBLADE.

If you don’t believe me that Remornia is a MOURNEBLADE look at this picture -

This clearly shows the three RUNES that are clearly engraved on the blade along with of course being a Sentient weapon like every other Mourneblade that we know about.

If you want to take this concept even further you could easily deduce that original sword wielded by Sargaros called Gorshalach was also a MOURNEBLADE itself because it was SENTIENT like every other Mourneblade and like every other Mourneblade it had various Runes of DOMINATION engraved on it - In addition even the weapon that Sargaros wields after it was fragmented is a Mourneblade (Gorribol the Dark Seether) See this image as evidence of it being a mourneblade

Image of Sargaras before his fall to madness wielding Gorshalach:

Gorribol the Dark Seether Image:

Once again following the concept that the PRIMUS is the only entity capable of crafting a Mourneblade it would mean that there was clearly some interaction between the Primus and the Titan Pantheon of Order even in the very early days of their appearance and interaction within the wow universe.
Additionally it is easy to understand that the PRIMUS would ensure to put certain safeguards on a MOURNEBLADE as powerful as Gorshalach. One of which was clearly what would happen to it if its Wielder fell under the influence of a Cosmic Force that was outside the ones that he perceived were permitted. As when Sargaros fell to madness the Mourneblade shattered into Fragments TO PREVENT THE FALLEN TITAN FROM WIELDING IT.

Sargaros then received a replacement Mourneblade that was made from some of the fragments of Gorshalach to forge Gorribal the Dark Seether and the fact that this new weapon embodied the darkness that exists in all beings which one could easily say is the ability for all beings to be dominated, manipulated or controlled to carry out actions that aren’t not ones they would have normally done. This could further elude to the fact that Sargaros has been manipulated, dominated and controlled by the PRIMUS for a very very long time and has continued to be dominated even after the original mourneblade was shattered. However, this is more likely to be linked to the fact that there is traces of Void in all beings even noble ones; just like there is traces of Light in all beings linking back the the aspect that it all started from Light and Void and it was this that everything else was created.

So has Sargaros actually been a PAWN of the PRIMUS this entire time and was done in a way that the Titan Pantheon wasn’t able to fully comprehend or understand. Potentially they might have been told a totally different story about the abilities and effects that a MOURNEBLADE created by the PRIMUS has; obviously the primus ensured there was enough truthful elements within this information to make it fully believable but clearly left out the aspect of the interaction he can control in relation to the wielder of the mourneblades and his own domination and control of these individuals

Taking this line of thinking even further and understanding that part of the process in which a mourneblade is created is that it requires the Anima/Soul/Cosmic Essence of a powerful cosmic entity to provide the basis from which the weapons SENTIENCE is produced. Additionally we know that it requires that DOMINATION runes are engraved on the weapon to provide the required outcome and desires of the weapons forger.

So where is all this leading you may ask? If you take the above paragraph about what is involved in the process to create a weapon that is either a mourneblade or one that has the same end result but is a different weapon other than a sword. There is another Mourneblade even though it is not a sword itself; showing that these weapons can be anything and don’t have to be a sword blade as one would assume with the Mourneblade concept. So what weapon fits this profile?

I give you - Xal’atath, Blade of the Black Empire.

The weapon was Sentient like all mourneblades and followed the same aspects or rules for this as we have seen with all other mourneblades/sentient weapons. During the forging process the anima/soul/cosmic essence of a sacrificial source entity is trapped, imprisoned and bound within the weapon to become the source from which the weapons sentience is formed. Then with the addition of a desired sequence of domination runes engraved on the weapon it creates the forgers desired outcome in relation to what the weapon is capable, the control and manipulation the forger is able to exert directly or indirectly over the wielder. Directly the forger is actively able to take over the wielder and force them to carry out any actions they require of them without them being able to prevent it etc. While Indirectly the forger makes use of the imprisoned entity and forces it to carry out a sequence of programmed or desired actions over the wielder; which either means the entity controls the wielder to achieve the results which isn’t very common. Alternatively it forces the entity to manipulated and coerce the wielder into carrying out a sequence of events that fall within the programmed guidelines they are bound to achieve and continue to carry out.

While the second option of indirect control is something we have seen the most it also seems to be the most effective in achieving the original weapon crafters desires forged during its creation. However, we also see in this circumstance an element of free will and actions that the entity is able to do; this of course is provided those actions don’t contradict or go against the guidelines implanted and outlined during the creation process.

As part of this process the Domination Runes engraved form an active component of the control and programming the the weapon creator has over the bound entity with the weapon in addition to the level of interaction that the weapon crafter has over any individual that wields their creation.

For example it is easy to see that something that has been done as either a part of a larger set of rules or a single set of instruction that are imprinted/implanted as a binding guideline for the entrapped entity is a section in which it prevents the entity from divulging any information that could be used to identify how or even who was the entity that imprisoned them. In addition this guideline in each also prevents the imprisoned entity from being able to provide details or explain thoroughly the process that transpired for them to be imprisoned within the weapon or the creation of the domination guidelines that were forged and bound upon them during the weapons creation. This obviously is done to protect the identity of who created the weapon or the process and steps involved to create weapons like it; knowing that the only individual in the WOW Universe that knows the process and is capable of making these types of Weapons is The Primus and he guards this information so that no other individual may ever find it out. The set of guidelines that are programmed/imprinted/implanted on every one of these weapons ensures that any entity that is used as a source to form a weapons sentience is incapable of ever being able to say or do anything that would implicate the Primus regardless whether it is directly or indirectly; or divulging the full process and information in relation to how weapons like this are forged and created.

The image below shows the DOMINATION RUNES that are engraved clearly on the blade like all other mourneblades and sentient weapons we have seen or come to know about in game.

Personally there is a clear difference between Rune Weapon or Runeblades (e.g. Felo’melorn) vs Mourneblades or Sentient Weapons; this being that the later requires and uses an entity as a sacrifice to be bound and imprisoned within the weapon to become that weapons sentience. Rune weapons have runes engraved upon them that do impart an addition of power or effects that the weapon is able to achieve. However, the runes engraved on Rune weapons are never Domination runes as those are only ever engraved and used as part of the process from which a Sentient Weapon or Mourneblade is forged and created.

It is also likely from what we have discovered and seen in relation to Sentient weapons that there is clearly a relationship between the type and power of the cosmic entity used in the creation of a sentient weapon. When a mortal or lesser entities are used the see that the weapons name that is created bares no mark of the soul or essence that it traps within; for example we see the outcome when an essence is fractured and used as the source for different things with what happened to Ner’zhul in the creation of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination. Neither of these items seem to allow for the entrapped essence to manipulate the weapons name ensuring their name and persona becomes an aspect of its name. This can likely be assumed to be the case for various other weapons such as Kingsmourne and Shadowmourne for example.

However, when an entity of significant power is used and their entire essence is entrapped within the weapon during its creation we see a different outcome in what happens in terms of the weapons name. It seems that the entrapped entity and their Sentience is able to influence the naming of such weapons to incorporate their own actual name to be that weapons name or a part of its name. Examples of this would be weapons such as ‘Xal’atath, Blade of the Black Empire’, Remornia, Gorshalach and its fractured personality to create a split that contains all that encompassed the good that existed in all beings even the noble ones; while the other comprised that side which was the darkness which exists within in all beings and even the noble ones - Taeshalach & ‘Gorribol the Dark Seether’ respectively.
While we have found out a lot more about who and what Xal’atath likely was and what they will become now they are released to a certain degree. We don’t have any real details or information on who or even what they actually could be in terms of an actual cosmic entity/being for any of the other weapons I mentioned along with Xal’atath, Blade of the Black Empire. However, if you consider the split identities that were formed when Gorshalach took the action that caused it to be fragmented and the two weapons that fracture created. It is possible that Gorshalach was likely some powerful cosmic entity which involved a connection to all beings and what construed to be said to be noble for all regardless of whether it was good/bad or light/dark. This in way potentially eludes to him having some connection or involvement with the balance/equality/Judgement of all between the Light and the Dark i.e. the Cosmic Forces Light and Void which in a way could also potentially tie him in someway to Elune maybe as well. This is just a hypothesis in terms of Gorshalach but it is something to think about and consider about who or what he was clearly used by the PRIMUS like every other entity that was used and entrapped as part of the process to make Sentient Weapons.

Just something to consider and think about how the PRIMUS might have been manipulating and pulling various strings for a very very long time a lot long that most would ever think to consider.

just my 2 cents and thinking outside the box a bit about various things we do know etc. and how that potentially links to a bigger picture involving the PRIMUS for a very long time going back much further than we were lead to believe etc.

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Just a heads up, your images are broken… at least for me.

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The images are definitely broken. It’s just a white box with black lines

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changed the image links can you seem them now using different links and some slightly different images but obtain the same result hopefully.

The links worked in both cases for myself so not sure why they didn’t work in the first instance. Hoping the new replacements work instead.

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I changed them around can you see the images now?

Working for me.

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Thank you for letting me know please feel free to provide any feedback or thoughts you might have as I am interested what other think about the concept and also any other additional information that might feasibly tie in or correlate with the concept and the hypothesis of it.

As it does theoretically mean that the reason the Primus is so tactically brilliant etc. is more than likely because he has been for a very long time been controlling or guiding it all unseen etc. It also would explain how he is able to plan and put in place steps and actions to take that have already been implemented before a given event happens and when it does he has it covered regardless even if there was one, two or even multiple potential outcomes he has always planned for any and all potential outcomes ensuring to put steps in place to deal each possibility which enables him to control and ensure that it all continues down the path providing his desired outcomes that results in the plans he desired all along.

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Yeah, it’s working now :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

And when I have time to write a proper response I will

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MOORCOCK SPOILER:


Fun fact: the the term Mourneblade was the name given to the twin sword of Stormbringer in the Elric novels. Both are projections of the cosmic Black Sword which is seen in giant form when it is used to smash the Cosmic Balance in the Hawkmoon series.

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Your theory seems sound to me, or at least well thought out. I can clearly see the connections you are drawing and you present your arguments well

Anyways… I have no evidence for it, I’m not as into Warcraft Lore as I probably should be… but I’d put money on something akin to the Time Turner from the Harry Potter series of books.

The fact that he seems to have perfectly arranged answers to everything is because of hindsight, he’s literally already seen it play out before. This is also why I hate Time Travel in a story, because if one party can use time travel then why is the problem even happening in the first place?

Time Travel as the solution bugs me almost as much as the idea of a “true” timeline. I’m with the void on this one. All timelines are “true” because they are all just as valid and worthy as we are.

Anyways back to the Primus… if he has true time travel or at least time viewing (personally I consider this one superior because less variables are involved.) than he could be the most powerful of villains to have ever existed out striping every other force that has ever existed and to make it worse, he’s shown he’s patient. He’s willing to be fine with shifting the flow of a river by millimeters over time letting the pieces of change accumulate over vast ages of time…

If he really does have the powers, suspected and displayed, and patience he’s shown then we are living in the world/timeline he has crafted and there isn’t much we can do about it, because everything we do would just be according to the plan…

Once again, I must reiterate, I hate time travel.

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Firstly thank you for the feedback it is greatly appreciated.

However, I would like to add some information that might change your thoughts around the Primus and the correlation he has to the various timelines.

I will help by using part of what you mentioned in your post being the section below as a starting point.

Firstly it is important to grasp how time and the various timelines are handled by each of the cosmic forces that formed the key building blocks from which everything else was formed. This of course would be Light and Void as at first there was nothing but the endless emptiness of the void but, this all changed when whatever happened which caused the first explosion of light and the waves of light that followed it pouring out into the emptiness of the void providing the first thing that is required to form everything else, Light.

Now knowing the above information and how Light and Void are tied together two things that were in the wow universe before everything else it is these two forces which have the most direct and definitive ties to the threads of time within the wow universe which make up the universal timelines and their various possibilities. However, each has a very different view about time and the process by which the timelines are viewed as a whole.

Firstly the Light while very much aware that there is more less infinite potential possible timelines they refuse to acknowledge only one of them and all others are irrelevant. This likely links back to the way in which Light was introduced in to the wow universe in the first place. It was an explosion of something that created the light in the first place and this was the point from which their concept of time would have evolved. This provides the fixed point from which their one true timeline would always draw from.

On the other for the Void it existed before there was anything at all and it was the introduction of Light that caused the changes which resulted in the void no longer being the endless and infinite empty void that it was before. So on this basis the Void starting as something that was infinite before the light was introduced its understanding of time would be one that time may have infinite possibilities but regardless these possible timelines always resulted in the same outcome of the void being the endless darkness of nothing that it had always been. Even when the light was introduced and some of the endless darkness was transformed by light it still wouldn’t impact on the fact that the void still existed outside of these areas and was as it had always been endless and infinite.
Taking that into consideration the Void held to the concept that there is time and the potential timelines would continue to have infinite possibilities as they had in the beginning and this couldn’t be changed by the introduction of a single event which impacted a finite area of a anything that is infinite. This is why anything that comes from or has connected to the Void is able to see all possible timelines however, they unable to identify which timelines and branches are active and real vs those that are merely a ghostly shadow of a unavailable or inactive timeline branch possibility.

So Light is fixated on the one timeline and does everything it can to ensure that it is the timeline that is observed because it is the only one that matters. While the Void sees all possible timelines but is incapable of see which of them is are ghost timeline tendrils and those that are real possible timelines. So the Void seeks to understand firstly which of the timelines is can see are real and then once this is known it can use this information to put various steps and things in place to achieve a desired result based on them knowing all the possible branches that could happen from the timeline that they now know is the one currently active.

Now knowing all that information I don’t think the Primus has the ability to directly influence or manipulate time himself. However, we do know at some point he interacted with the void likely through an entity of the void itself. This interaction granted him a short period in which he was able to see time in the same way that void does. This meant that he able to see all timelines and even though he was unable to maintain the ability to see time through eyes of the void the time he did have provided him with all the information and knowledge her needed. As he was able to deduce which was the real timeline and evaluate all the various possible branches it had and what events would be required to activate each these branches. That knowledge is the information that he uses as a basis of much of his tactical decision and planning. It is also the likely reason why he clearly took steps to ensure he had the right pawns and elements in place to manipulate events to ensure that the only timeline branches that happen are ones in which he has planned to have triggered etc.

It is very important to understand the difference between being able to see and view time in terms of timelines vs the power to actively manipulate and use Time as a basis of active powers and abilities. We know that the Aman’thul from the Titan Pantheon is an powerful cosmic entity with access to time as a basis of power and has such high level of control over it that he was not only able to create stasis chambers which froze time for any being within them; as well as being the source from which the Bronze Dragonflight received their ability to interact with time and travel through time itself.
Just to clarify this while it is very clear Aman’thul has the ability to interact with time and likely travel through time he is unable to see as the void and can only see a limited portion of the available timelines. I believe this is more than likely linked to the connection the Titan Pantheon has to Light and it’s because of this they suffer from the same fixation on a single timeline exclusively of any others.

Anyway I hope that helps you out

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I’m very very sure that you’re thinking far deeper than the authors of these expansions do.

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I would challenge you if you get the chance to try this roleplaying game out.

They are also known as the authors of the Yamara comic strip series.

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While you have done impressive theorycrafting, there’s a few problems. First, you said there was Void and then Light. That is not true; Light was first and then Void appeared afterward. Even if the First Ones predated all others, Light still predates Void.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Light#Origins_and_characteristics

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Void#Origins_and_characteristics

The lore introduced in Legion says the Light sees one path as true and all others as lies (dogmatism) while the Void sees them all as equally true (doublethink). According to Legion’s lore (which has yet to be rectonned), both have feelings, biases and goals that effect their ability to see the future.

We also don’t know who the ally is that gave the Primus the ability to see different timelines. An agent of the Void is a good candidate, but it is not confirmed and they’re not the only game in town.

That might affect your theory.

I wonder what would happen if people like us stopped doing the writers’ job for them.

N’Zoth was also able to unbind Xal’atath so the Old Gods of Azeroth may be the ones to have given visions of different timelines to the Primus.

Speaking of the Old Gods: Each one seems to have something tied to the awakening that the Naga associate with Queen Azshara’s return.

Besides the Heart of Y’Shaarj and Hunger of Yogg-Saron the Exploring Azeroth: Kalimdor Book mentions C’Thun’s Eye being acquired for unknown reasons… Add that to Azshara having the word Sha in her name as well as the Draenei word for Light being Sha… Mu’sha also has the word Sha in her name and the Old God language is called Shath’yar.

Well… it almost makes it seem as if the Old Gods(except for N’Zoth) as well as Xal’atath and Azshara are actually dismembered parts(Heart, Eye and Hunger) of whatever is in Hallowfall’s Crystal(Mu’sha in all likelihood considering how N’Zoth mentions that the fall of Night reveals her true face and how the Barrowknoll Cemetery mentions that Night falls and that her Song will end).

The Primus might have had a part in Xal’atath’s binding to a Mourneblade so Zovaal probably knew the implications of what is in the Hallowfall Crystal which is probably what drove him to his crimes.

Firim himself stated the Song must not end: The 6(the Eye C’Thun, the Death Yogg-Saron, the Heart Y’Shaarj, the other Eye Xal’atath, the Soul Azshara and either the Body in Hallowfall or considering she is a sentient Mourneblade like Xal’atath and how Prototype Denathrius uses Spells named after Night: Remornia) must not become the 7th(which Firim states is not a variable to be solved but a horrific solution awaiting it’s opportunity).

Saezurah mentions “Her dreams sing beneath the surface. Quiet now, but her voice will awaken the others.” with N’Zoth saying “Her dreams sing beneath the surface. Our dreams. Our song.” Since the Song ends the moment the entity in Hallowfall’s Crystal awakens(with all 6 personas C’Thun, Yogg-Saron, Y’Shaarj, Xal’atath, Remornia and Azshara infused into her) it is likely that N’Zoth wants the Song of the First Ones to remain eternally just as the Eternal Ones do.

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Blizzard should be thankful that people on these forums are writing in the meat and weight of the story for them.

Some swords have similar-looking runes so they must all be mourneblades?

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the amount of effort you put in and the Void ideas. For me the best part of the idea is the parts regarding Xal’atath. My issue is some parts are huge leaps of logic.

Nothing suggests Zovaal has any connection to, or knowledge of, the crystal in Hallowfall, or that it was relevant to his plans in any way. Because it didn’t exist at the time of writing, perhaps not even as a story concept. The Old Gods were much more visible to him and an established part of the story, yet he never made special mention of - or plans for - them.

Some parts of the story are a Rubik’s cube with every color on every side the same. Turn and twist the interpretation to one’s heart’s content, and they’ll feel like they hit on something every time they reach a conclusion.

Historically, the writers do not plan ahead this much. It’s like some of Ulduar’s stained-glass windows in Wrath looking like the Sha we first saw in Mists. The devs admitted that was just a coincidence.

I don’t think any of your ideas are bad. If they all turned out to be canon, apart from the one about Azshara (who did start as mortal, and isn’t a piece of a cosmic entity), I think they could be good. I just think you’re getting a bit carried away with headcanon here.

We aren’t. For very good legal and professional reasons the writers avoid the Lore forums like the plague. Authors like Mercedes Lackey don’t read fan fiction of their work for that reason as wel.

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Which is a grand total of two. We don’t call that a large data set.

And aren’t you supposed to be a brunette?

this thread is a big tldr for me
personally I hate sentient weapons because they talk and stuff and get annoying in the game
eventually got rid of nzoths gift too, stop whispering sweet nothings in my ear

And we all know Blizzard has a great track record with obeying rules and laws, eh? :wink: