The grind, why it's so bad

As a new player, I have been thinking about news related to WoW and people leaving the game. I can imagine several different reasons why this is taking place, so I thought to post what I’m thinking here.

The grind, it’s this way with any MMO that offers progression. There is a certain amount of effort that is required to achieve different goals. Character progression is tied to grind. But grinding doesn’t have to be so bad, not like it is with WoW. As a matter of fact, more could be required of a player to achieve certain goals and it not be such a grind.

While playing in areas people need to do daily quests in order to get the first pathfinder achievement I noticed that it was very seldom, if ever, I saw anyone flying anywhere. I see people flying other places but almost never in areas where you have to grind hard for the ability to fly. I thought at first that maybe it was simply the overwhelming list of garbage needed to be done in order to get the 1st pathfinder achievement but I no longer think this. I think what happens is that we are required to grind out missions in such a way that after you get the pathfinder achievement you no longer want to play in those regions anymore.

So why get the achievement at all?

And why is the grind so terrible?

The first question is easy, we all want proof that we accomplished something, it’s part of why we put up with any kind of grind. For an achievement to be worth anything, there must be some difficulty involved in obtaining it. But what about the grind being so terrible?

There are many problems with the way the grind is set up in WoW. First, it’s repeating the same quests over and over and over again. After you do a quest, you don’t want to do it every day over and over again. It’s the quests themselves. They are not stimulating, difficult or even interesting past maybe the first time and many times not even then. It’s as if all the work and effort has been put into the graphics, the design, the things you can buy off the market, the game mechanics and very little real effort or interest in making the quests engaging or challenging. They are a bore! And the worst part about it is the same boring quests have been digested and barfed back out again for every version of the game. So as the game itself has evolved, the quests have not changed.

What makes this worse is the incorrect way the challenges scale. If you are attempting to get pathfinder now, it’s no challenge at all to do the quests, they are so easy that it feels everything has been dramatically dumbed down. So obtaining the achievement almost feelings like cheating. It’s certainly not fair to those who came before, who were required to do these things when they were a challenge, and difficult.

It’s as if the developers decided they would spend the least amount of effort and time, of money, of intelligence in regards to quests and the stories.

As if this wasn’t bad enough, we are required to do all the main story quests, and all the daily quests several times over in order to fly in that region/expansion. So what reason would you have to go back to those areas after you get the achievement, and then what is the achievement even good for?

If you do all the content to get the achievement so you can fly, then there is no reason to ever want to fly in any of those areas ever again, and thus why you almost never see anyone flying in these areas.

It’s intellectual laziness, it’s laziness on the part of Blizzard to create interesting and engaging content. It’s a lack of interest in keeping all the old material relevant. So the next questions are?

Why subscribe?

What do you get by subscribing?

Super easy content is not engaging, not challenging, those achievements mean nothing so are you paying for that? Or paying so you can get the companions and mounts easy?

You are subscribing for the engaging and new content, if you don’t hurry up and finish the current newest content, when the next big updated comes out it will all be so easy to do you might not find it interesting and/or engaging.

I do not understand why Blizzard does not understand their customers, or understands them so poorly. The reason why people are leaving the game is because there are other things they could be doing for entertainment that are more fun, that create more laughs, more smiles, more challenge. People are leaving because frankly, the Blizzard developers, the managers of those developers, have become lazzy. Repeating the same thing over and over in different ways is not new content, it’s boring content.

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It’s my perception that many of the things you’ve discussed is why I only sub for classic. Once pugs became such that I chose no longer to do them, a lot of retail content was lost to me and I struggled to remain interested in the game. When classic came out, it was ideal for me: lots of challenging content, an interesting story, little repetition (unless leveling an alt), something new every level once you hit 10, and when something nice drops, it’s special.

Some folks like to skip content by buying in-game boosts, buying gold then buying gear on gdkp runs, going zealot with min/max and bis. I don’t do that, but I have fun doing what I do and that works for me. You suggest Blizz is lazy and that may be true. It may also be that their Dev team is more a maintenance team. I think the really creative talent left long ago.

On the other hand, it can’t be easy trying to create something interesting when your doing the sequel of a sequel of a sequel of a sequel of a . . . and so on. The game is old, burned out, and more like an old favorite that you might pull off your shelf, stuff into your cd drive, or playstation or xbox and enjoy playing again remembering when it was new. The original was/is amazing to me. Retail is, at best, meh, and I don’t see that changing.

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A lot of the design philosophy that drives this game is basically traditionalism. When you see these artifacts remaining in place for well over a decade when it has become painfully clear they no longer work, you’re coming face to face with the stubbornness of the few people allowed a voice in the game’s direction. Couple that with a game world that is increasingly treated like a waiting room for the real content in instances, and you’re left with a hollow experience that is more rote than anything.

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WoW both does and does not have a grind, and there is a really strange dichotomy in this that is caused by some weakly integrated modernizations that are afraid to supplant or supplement the older systems.

If you look at how progression was done in early WoW in a big picture way, it is pretty much the same as it is today. What they have done with progression in modern WoW is chopped it up into many smaller pieces and spread them thin over timegates. The end result is identical, but the path to complete it is a scatterbrained collection of separate grinds.

So we have now this big collection of progression systems that are too attached to the old ways to appease the people who didn’t like the old ways, and too messy to appease the people who did like the old ways. This is the core of modern WoW’s problems. They can’t seem to pick a direction.

If they revert to a more cohesive traditional progression style, we just keep on keepin on with the same old problems, the raid logging, the nothing to do, the no progression path for people who don’t play instanced content. If they go all in on a more modern progression system that is more open and cohesively modern, this forum will be nothing but angry classic players shartposting about how the game isn’t only for them anymore. It is a hard thing to solve.

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Activision has to have some data that shows daily time played is linked to WOW token sales or something because the game is now designed to maximize player engagement with daily boring grinds (daily quests, shipyard, AP, conduit energy). Flying is such a high demand feature that Blizzard can milk player engagement with it better than anything else. Flying appeals to every type of player. It’s maximum engagement for all player types. I think that’s why the flying requirements are so onerous.

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There are fewer people in the zones where flight is available because those are no longer the end-game zones… I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

And since flight reduces the amount of time you spend in any given area, it seems pretty disingenuous to turn around and use the fact that players spend less time in those areas as evidence that the content is bad.

Questing and dailies (literally the only things that flight has impacted since its implementation in TBC) has never been the “engaging and challenging” part of this game. I’m not sure where you got the idea that it was.

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THat is one of the biggest issues.

To be honest flight needs to stay at max level for expansions but Pathfinder or what ever they use needs to be changed .

It needs to go to a patch by patch type of thing to where when you complete it for said patch it opens flying for those patches zones . So say you complete PF for patch X.0 you then get to fly in those zones.

THe only requirements should be Completing the patch’s story and exploring the zones for the patch in their entirety. If they were to add anything else maybe find x amount of treasures in the zones but that is where I would draw the line.

Once one has completed the story and seen all of the ma for the patches , the only other content is pretty much things like WQ and instanced content . Don’t really need to be grounded for those to be honest .

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Frankly, thats a good thing. Why keep us bottled up in old content trying to get a mode of travel?

Is that true though? I mean when was the last time we had that?

Certainly long before M+, or zones like ZM with a ton of new and unique mounts to collect, or zone wide progression systems to make farming more interesting, etc. It has also been quite a while since said dailies changed the landscape (like molten front).

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I enjoy the game.

Enjoyment.

I don’t play games to be challenged; I play games to be entertained, not frustrated.

Good. Then I get to enjoy it at my own pace.

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When it was current, most of the achievements required happened naturally just by playing the game, so it really didn’t feel like a grind.

As a new player, If you have to go back and finish up pathfinder it will feel like a grind. And those “see all the artwork” and “diminishing immersion” arguments get even more pointless.

If they haven’t changed it, all past pathfinders should be awarded when you complete the current achievement.

Blizzard has been running the world’s most successful MMORPG for nearly two decades. i have doubts that you understand the industry better than them.

What are your credentials?

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The entire current wow design revolves around cash shop metrics aimed at specific demographics where the whales reside

They have literally trashed they game in pursuit of increased cash shop revenue (which has been wildly successful)

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This seems to be what players ask for.

Heck, go look at comments saying they feel entitled to high ilvl gear to kill elites out in the open-world - monsters aren’t allowed to be stronger than them, they MUST be able to solo some thing in the open-world if it exists in the open-world.

Players who do M+, raids, and PvP are mostly happy with what they’re getting, but it’s the open-world players who whine for nerfs to their content who are seeing the challenge chipped away. And rewards only come with challenge, so as they whine for the challenge to be nerfed, they’re actually asking Blizzard to nerf the rewards. Hence it becomes meaningless - easy and lacking in rewards, as per their own wishes. These people seem to want a game they can log into, do something, and feel “progression”, without ever feeling that the game has put up barriers like “skill checks” or “group quest” in their way.

It is what it is. It isn’t traditionalism, it’s the opposite, it’s caving to players who claim they don’t want to struggle.

It seems to be a sincere post, on the surface.

Yet, there are cracks in the post. First, it’s an opinion, second it’s mostly wrong.

The OP says he is new player, posting about old player stuff. Well, this is the problem, as an old player, I already did it all the hard way, when it was current. I did Vanilla, as vanilla, even though I started early BC. The zones were not crowded, but they were populated, the biggest difference, at 58 we went to Honor Hold, skipping the old end game zones like Silithus.

The problem, the too easy, for a new comer, is because IF you played the old zones now, the way they were played then, your leveling experience would take months, and while perhaps a few of you newcomers would play it, most would not.

Even as the OP posts how easy it is, there are alternate posts stating how hard it is, so many systems… they want Call of Duty, 10 minutes and you’re an expert.

That’s the overall problem. ultimately every change Blizz makes shrinks the playerbase.
Those happy with the changes remain, those unhappy enough leave. New players don’t make up the difference.

The good news, if you want to do it the old way, begin by mining copper nodes, pick some peacebloom.

I don’t think grinding is inherently bad, but there are too many grinds and all of them have too many insignificant checkpoints. And they end up mattering much more because all the power bonuses from all the grinds compound.

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I disagree. Couldn’t care less about veterans who wanna gatekeep from other players. This mentality can go to the Maw.

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You’re pretty close to the truth here.

I don’t know when you started following WoW news, but back in WoD, Blizzard’s original plan was to do away with flight entirely going forward. It was the first expansion to launch with no flight available. The devs didn’t like how people interacted with the world while flying so they got rid of it.

Nothing short of an INSANE amount of blowback from players got them to backpedal on it.

But here’s the thing. They didn’t compromise. They put out pathfinder, which looks like a compromise, but isn’t.

Because, as you just said, the requirements for Pathinder Part 2 (see: the one that actually unlocks flight) can’t be completed until the zones involved (and sometimes, the only zones you’re actually unlocking flight for) are irrelevant. You’ve done everything you can in them, and current content has moved on to some patch island.

It’s not a compromise.

It’s malice disguised as compromise.

(All of that said, I don’t actually feel strongly about Flight. The game plays just fine without it. I just think Blizzard’s behavior on it is incredibly underhanded.)

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All that writing (which is appreciated if not totally agreed with) when it comes down to: it’s designed to be for alts now. That was their goal all along, to slowly adjust us to this point.

Ion didn’t even want flying in WoD and had to be convinced he’d have a riot on his hands. So the psychology dept got together to show how to slowly indoctrinate people into new systems.

That’s all. Plain & simple.

That isn’t the case at all. Admissions from Ion and pretty much every beta testing phase nukes that perspective into oblivion—they have always stuck to their vision to the bitter end. You can’t try to pin current design on a small portion of the incredibly insignificant pool of players that comprise forumgoers and extend that to players in general. Even when the forums were very active, it was a tiny fraction of the playerbase.

That, and the game director has said that they’re, y’know, stubborn traditionalists.