You ever watch old MM pvp videos or just hunters in general on youtube from wrath to WoD and just wonder why blizzard took everything away from us? The days when melee didn’t have every single way to get out of our CC, back when we could kite efficiently and have useful pet utility like how warlocks do in BFA. I just don’t get it man why have we been pruned down to this sorry state in pvp.
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You want to know why? Because anytime hunters are doing good in pvp. The other people that main the other classes immediately call overpowered and boom the nerf bat comes.
Hunters have always been the red headed step children. Has been that way since day 1. Its why most reference us as huntards even if that person plays the class properly.
Only thing you can do is adapt and overcome.
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I don’t know what they were thinking in the Legion revamp (destruction) of our class. It completely boggled my mind then, and it still does today. They wanted us to have 36 classes instead of 12. Why they wanted that, I have no idea. The PLAYERS didn’t want that, but some random_designer_004 (likely Ion himself) did, so that’s what we got. Hunters were all Archers (or the gun equivalent) ranged DPS. Somehow that made them too similar. We have 9 ranged spellslingers, but 3 Archers was too many (boggle). So they destroyed the whole thing and designed three completely new Hunter “classes” based on some idea of what they were at their core.
The problem is, what THEY thought was their core, and what the players thought was their core were two very different things. Now we have ZERO archer classes worthy of the name (Fk You random_designer_004!) There was also the additional complication that the designers insisted that certain abilities were too broadly used.
Take the execute mechanic. This is a fundamental ability, but they wanted to make it niche. It somehow got designated that only Warriors should have it, despite the fact that 3 of 9 had it in Vanilla (Warlock, Warrior, Paladin), 4 of 9 in TBC (add Priest), 5 of 10 in WotLK (add Hunter), and 6 of 11 in MoP (add Monk). This shows that while it increased over the years, the number of classes without it stayed the same from TBC all the way until the Legion destruction of classes. When they decided that maybe it was important that all those classes that they removed it from should get it back, the only class that didn’t get it back in some way was Hunter. So now it is 5 of 12 that have an execute of some sort. All those classes that got it back are doing fine in PvP. The one class that didn’t (us) are at the bottom of the totem pole in PvP. Coincidence? I think not. (I know not.)
Yes, I very much miss those days (nearly a decade) of our former glory. I think that is obvious by my 10+ post/day on the topic. We will get our class put back to its non-broken state, I swear it!
Never give up, never surrender.
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It ain’t just in PvP.
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I understand that and know that. The op mentioned pvp and thats how i responded but honestly any nerfs that have happened to us effected pve and pvp at the same time.
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That’s just not true. Hunters have been nerfed much less than many classes (not counting the last two revamps). As far as I can remember, the only time that Hunters were nerfed was well deserved (as in they fixed things that were game breaking).
The only thing I can think of that was nerfed but undeserved was the pet damage nerf in the beginning of BfA that still remains today. I mean it was kind of deserved when it happened, but its also ridiculous to nerf something like that before we even get the appropriate gear for the expansion. It obviously is way over the top now, but that’s a separate issue. They seem to have given up on class balance completely for all classes. I don’t know why. Maybe they are too busy designing new spell animations. (Dire Bee’s takes a lot more development time than taking Scatter off of Trap DR e.g.).
I just so completely disagree with this. Hunters were great for so long. From TBC all the way up until Legion.
“Huntards” happened primarily because of pets causing wipes. If you didn’t micromanage your pet (dismiss it every single time before jumping off a ledge for example) you would cause a wipe. This is not obvious behavior. I’m not sure why Warlocks didn’t get a Locktard moniker for the same reason, but it was likely because there were many more Hunters than Warlocks in Vanilla.
Regardless, this is imo the primary origin of the term. It certainly has nothing to do with hair color.
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It bleeds over between the two.
Outside PvP Hunters did middle of the pack from Wrath to Legion. In PvP from BC to MoP Hunters were so bad that other Classes compared their off Specs to us.
As a MM hunter we may have not suffered alot of nerfs but the nerfs have been mostly to aimed shot. Or certain aspects when they mattered or nerfing aimed shot and buffing an aspect we didnt use in pvp.
Imo middle of the pack is the greatest place to be. Especially for so long. It is because we were there that we got nerfed so little!
I’m not sure what game you were playing, but I dominated in PvP during that time (well, not BC).
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That’s you, not they Class as a Whole.
Do you mean in BfA? I don’t count anything in BfA (or Legion) for MM. It has been a complete sh*tshow. We are a broken class, not a red-headed stepchild. There is a difference. It also has nothing to do with what we were before because we were completely remade.
I actually don’t care how other people played. It was a very complex class, with lots of nuance. The fact that it was extremely difficult to master is what made it great imo. There needs to be at least one class like that. We also had BM for those who couldn’t handle the difficulty, and I don’t remember BM ever being anything but decent to great during that era. Ffs, MoP was the stampede era wasn’t it? BM was godlike when that first came out.
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And this makes you look like you don’t know what you are talking about.
PvE BC it was among the top DPS in Raid. PvP, it was hampered. It also actually spent some time as our hardest Spec.
This makes me want to try to run through concrete walls head first. That bug lasted a couple of weeks and the prevalence of Razor’s Naga did more to the Class than Stampede ever did.
ALL it does is state my priorities. It is ludicrous to tie that directly to knowledge or experience.
Stampede was nerfed to be sure, but it was still strong as far as I remember. But notice, it was a question not a statement. I have never really played BM. I only ever mastered MM, and to a lesser extent RSV. Because of that I NEVER attempt to make statements about BM in a definitive way and attempt to always qualify my statements with an “I think” or “as far as I remember” unless I am certain about something.
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It shows a lack of knowledge in the area you are commenting on. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but it can bite you in the backside.
It was bugged, like literally game breaking bugged.
So this is read wrong?
I don’t see how a statement of my priorities does this. Perhaps you read into it something that was not intended.
Was this not true during the time period in question (at least most of it)? I remember people constantly complaining about BM being faceroll. Not just people getting killed by them, but the players themselves. It was trivial to do damage because the pet did all the damage and didn’t require LoS to do 100% of its pet damage. These pets that were 50+% of a full DPS were also unshakable.
How was that statement incorrect?
Unfortunately I don’t know of any resources that track Arena or RBG representation vs. rating from before WoD. I would love to look that up so we could have a more meaningful conversation. If you know of any, please let me know.
How about the follow up:
“I don’t remember BM ever being anything but decent to great during that era.”
First, you will notice that I qualified that with “I don’t remember”, but regardless is this not a true statement?
I put myself out of the equation.
Cata-now nope. In Wrath it was too neutered. In BC you could do your rotation with a mousewheel. Vanilla, we were called Huntards because of a high skill floor.
You had to get both timing and rotation correct with little to no room for error. Add more keybindings than most Classes, and BM becomes way more complicated in the Era you seem to be talking about.
This does give you an out, but what I said about Hunters in PvP was considered common knowledge. We are talking to the point that both Blizzard and gaming media talked about it. Greg Street staked his professional reputation on fixing us.
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. First, I am not talking about PvE rotations. I am NEVER talking about maximizing PvE DPS when I talk about ease of play. I am talking about PvP and the ENTIRE Hunter toolkit. I thought that was the context. That was certainly MY context. If I didn’t make that clear, I apologize.
As for the overall complexity of BM, of course the skill ceiling was incredibly high. Just as high as for other hunters. It was pretty much the same toolkit. However, any BM could step into an arena and be very effective for the reasons I stated above. It took very little skill to be very effective in that venue because the pet did so much damage with very little input required from the Hunter. It also couldn’t be controlled easily by the opposing team. Bestial Wrath with its very high uptime specifically was extremely powerful in both burst and forcing pressure on a healer that they could do nothing about. It was almost a CC all by itself just due to the damage. It forced a very specific counterplay. It is always powerful to have that level of control of your opponent.
Against a BM LoS was largely irrelevant. This was an extremely powerful ability which made them at the very least effective with very little skill required. So the skill floor for PvP was very low for BM. That is what I was trying to say. I am fairly certain that is accurate, though I personally never played BM at the time, at least not enough to be called an expert or to have perfectly accurate memories.
So…
While I raided extensively in both TBC and Wrath, pretty much all I did in the rest of the expansions was PvP (I also did a ton of PvP in the aforementioned expansions just to be clear). I did PvP as a hunter for years. Not just years in real time, but years in played time. I spent WAY too much of my life doing exactly that. I can’t speak to others experience because I am not others. I am only me.
I didn’t frequent the boards at the time very often because I was having way too much fun playing the game. So what was “common knowledge” is not my forte. I only know my experiences and what others said in game, or over chat, or what I observed playing with or against people in PvP. I spent a LOT of time analyzing such things because that’s just how I work. My assessments are completely accurate within my experience.
So my knowledge is experiential and I have a metric fk’ton of it. Forum knowledge I will leave to you.
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