The gearing question? Puzzling Cartel Chip Issue

Edit added after Cartel chip dropped: At launch, only Mythic track gear is locked behind killing the specific boss, instead of the hero track. Mythic track M+ is locked behind timing a 12+ key. The change is great and moves the Cartel Chip into a more “progression” based incentive and less of consolation prize. Good move Blizzard.

  1. The question:

Is gearing meant to help progression? Or,
Is gearing meant as a reward for progression?

The problem is that I don’t think Blizzard knows.

  1. The issue:

If gearing up is meant for progression, meaning meant to help reach a goal (AOTC, a specific M+ score, downing the Mythic raid) Then locking the optimal gear for achieving that goal behind two obstacles (the difficulty of the fight itself and the RNG related to loot drops) is counter-intuitive. Needing to attain the goal before accessing the items that are meant to help you progress the goal means they’re not meant for progression at all.

If gearing is a reward for progressing, then the only purpose BiS serves is cosmetic. It’s a temporary flex roughly equal to a title, only awarded based on RNG or rules of probability, meaning the more time you have, the higher the chance you will see the reward. The problem, is that it’s also a superficial flex. I know a Paladin player who is easily a better player than I am, but due to time constraints and bad RNG, he never won the item for the Fyrakk Legendary, his BiS. I play way more at a lower skill level and had it on all three classes that could wield it. I was rewarded for playing the game more, not better.

  1. Bad luck protection muddies the water:

A quick history of bad luck protection:
Justice Points/Loot vendor = chore not fun
Bonus rolls = gambling with bad RNG
Great Vault = gambling tied to more content, with a side of player choice.
Dinar = BLP like Justice Points only limited to select slots within the players current progression level. (Normal = Normal, Heroic = Heroic, Mythic = Mythic and only for raiders. Limited upgrade potential with progression.)
Bronze Bullion = BLP, with the potential to upgrade to higher progression levels.
Puzzling Cartel Chip = Dinar system, with a little more options outside of Raid, and upgrading only within the level of progression you obtained the item in.

So what is the point of BLP, to fill a slot on my character sheet, or to get that really strong item that will help me progress further before the end of a season?

If gear is meant to help with progression, then BLP should award stronger items earlier, that can then be upgraded through progression.

If gear is a reward for progressing, then why bother with BLP at all. The game is gambling at this point and the rules are probability. BiS becomes a cosmetic concept and the different difficulties are just flexes.

For my money, I preferred the Bronze Bullion system. It may have been a bit too generous but it was a shortened season and mostly we were retreading older content. However, the getting a really powerful item early on that could become progressively stronger as I progressed through the season, felt better than the temporary instant gratification of getting my BiS trinket a week before the season ended.

  1. Conclusion:

The negative response to the Puzzling Cartel Chip announcement clearly spotlights a divide between how some of the development team views loot rewards and what the players see as loot rewards.

To further complicate that divide, we can look at the M+ system, which can become infinitely more difficult, but stops rewarding gear upgrades at the Item level cap. The players that want to “flex” their skill don’t stop once they no longer receive gear.

Another anomaly in the gearing world is the tier piece reward for completing the raid at different difficulties. Before this was a token that had to be converted, which often was useless because most players would have their 4 piece tier by this point, or as a consolation prize to those players that this was as far as they were going to go. Now it’s a catalyst charge, which is better because if I continue to progress and get a Mythic non-tier piece, then I can use the charge to upgrade it. But why even bother with all the extra steps? Instead, why not award a single piece of tier for the next difficulty level. I complete LFR, give me a Normal tier piece to get me started on progressing normal. Normal a heroic, heroic a mythic.

For me personally, I prefer the concept of gearing as a part of progression, not a reward for progressing. The temporary excitement of getting a drop (even a rare legendary one) was never as satisfying as the feeling I have when my guild finally wrecks a boss we’ve been attempting for weeks, or finally timing that higher key, etc… I’m pretty confident that there are a lot of players who agree with me.

A final example I’d like to offer is the Mage Tower. Those were hard fights, that tons of players logged hours upon hours on. There were no gear rewards for that, only cool cosmetics.

I’ve yet to meet a mythic raider that thought getting their BiS trinket off a boss kill was a better feeling than the feeling for getting the kill itself. Getting a strong piece of gear might just be the catalyst that pushes a LFR raider into Normal, or a Normal Raider into Heroic, or even a Heroic into Mythic. I know, I was one of those LFR players.

I’m not advocating that the hardest bosses shouldn’t drop the highest rewards. If you can beat Mythic Gallywix without the BiS trinket he drops, what’s the point of the mythic BiS trinket after he’s dead? My guess is to drive that player to engage in other ways, maybe push higher keys now.

Would be a shame to throw away the joy of a MMO, because of some arbitrary ideas about gear as loot.

P.S. There are way too many trinkets on the loot tables this season. Most have nominal affect on gameplay and mostly become vendor trash or disenchanted. Thank god for the new crafting system, the real BLP of modern WoW.

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In the case of the dinars, the hero items are a reward to help progression and the myth items are a reward for progression.

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Theyre both

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Yes, I explain this in the rest of my post.

Heroic = Progression
Mythic = Cosmetic.

This is my point. BLP should be, in my opinion, a tool for progression, not a consolation prize or a cosmetic reward.

The problem is that the current Cartel Chip design doesn’t really service either lower tier groups or the top percentile mythic raiders as progression. It is only a consolation prize for bad RNG, both in drops and vault.

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Gear is both a reward and to help progression. If it was strictly for progression, there would be no reason to have the final boss in the raid drop any gear at all. Yet throughout the history of the game, that’s where the best gear comes from. If it was strictly a reward, everything would be tuned to be completed without needing to upgrade your gear at all. It’s obviously both.

Also, and I know your post didn’t directly address this, but people have got to stop with the “if this item isn’t the absolute best possible bis item, then it’s total garbage that’s completely worthless to me” mentality.

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“The problem is that I don’t think Blizzard knows.” - Yes, that’s why I said this.

There is friction in the concept of needing better gear to progress but that gear being locked behind content you’re trying to progress.

I specifically pointed out the Mage Tower challenge as a good example. Blizzard quite clearly stated that they didn’t want to make the original design of the mage tower scale because it would instantly prevent a large chunk of the players from completing it. Player power with gear progression was an important part of the MMO experience.

On the other hand, I agree that the best rewards should come from the hardest content.

BLP or systems like the Dinar system help to bridge the tension of players that have run into a wall with progression, and are looking for that next power spike to push further, but the item their looking for is locked behind the obstacle they’re trying to overcome.

I’m in the camp of generosity, believing that the more accessible you make gear progression, the more engagement you get overall.

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At the expense of others. At what point do players realize THEY need to get better and not that Blizzards NEEDS to hand them a win

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  1. No other players are harmed when Blizzard implements a system that awards 1 really good piece of gear, available to all players. It may actually spur more players to try new content. You would have to explain how this is an “expense”
  1. At what point is anyone advocating that players don’t need to get better? Most players I know are always trying to push harder, or at least get good enough to complete the content they set out to do. Nothing I’ve said is encouraging blizzard to “hand out” anything. I’m pointing out a system called “Bad Luck Protection” in system defined less by skill and more by time available to lower probability (Meaning if you have more chances to throughout a season, your bad luck goes down) doesn’t actually work as “Bad Luck protection” but rather brings up questions at what is the roll of gear as loot plays. (And yes it’s both used for helping advance progression and as a reward for rewards sake at the highest levels.)
  1. This bit is interesting. First Dinars, Bronze Bullion, and Cartel Chips have never been “free” wins. Bronze Bullions were the easiest to earn, but you always. Had to participate in something in the game. And even then, after you bought the gear, you still had to earn the stones and crests to upgrade it. So no one is advocating that someone be given the maximum level gear at all. Second, I don’t think anyone is advocating for free wins. It used to be that over the course of an expansion players could earn a currency to target items they missed in drops. Blizzard removed that claiming it wasn’t fun. Something else not fun, getting 4 trinkets in your vault and none of them useful, or your raid only seeing that BiS drop once and someone else won it on the roll.
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It doesnt…look at the outcry of putting an entry level m+ quest at the end of a delve.

Also, you raise the engagement for those under the median and lower it for those over. Therefor those under benefit at the expense of the over

Dinars.
Asking for betrer rewards ar lower levels.

I can get the strongest trinkets/rings/cantrip items in game from raids, at max ilvl, without ever stepping foot in a raid.

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I didn’t see any “outcry” over this. Actually saw tons of positive comments about this and was asked to help many friends who don’t normally do M+ to run some extra dungeons. It drove engagement to that part of the game from players that don’t usually do M+.

From a business perspective, that’s good.

If you believe that people “above the median” quit because of the sudden rush of people “below the median” actually happened, but I don’t. I’ve never seen a single person come out and say that they quit playing a game because more people were playing it, especially an MMO where you can create personal bubbles where you don’t have to play with “those” players.

…. But depending on which currency, players still have to:

  1. Dinar = Do the raid at the raid difficulty (so you are just wrong here.)
  2. Bullion = grind out the flightstones and crests needed to upgrade to the highest item level (the not “free” grinding of M+ and/or Raids to max out.)
  3. Cartel Chips = Must Kill the boss on the difficulty or complete all M+ dungeons on 12+ difficulty (Combining more M+ grinding with having to kill specific bosses on specific difficulties.)

You and I define “free” differently.

Either you don’t understand these systems, or you are just trolling because none of the criticisms you’ve presented reflect the game we’re playing or the systems we’re discussing.

It sounds like you just don’t like the idea of gear vendors for progression. And that all gear rewards should be based solely on RNG. Negative probability results should only be reduced through forcing players to repeat the same content over and over again. I could try and get that elusive trinket on my 60th kill of a boss, or I could just go play a different game that doesn’t force me into an arbitrary time sink disguised as “competitive gaming.”

Gear as a reward is fine, as long as the reward is access to harder content. There is always going to be a power cap on gear, and that doesn’t stop those hardcore players that push well past in M+ every season. I’ve never met a player who sat in trade chat spamming a link to their Mythic BiS trinket as a flex. The idea of power related gear as a reward, in my opinion, is antithetical to the point of an MMORPG, where role playing power fantasies is built into the genre.

Power rated gear as a reward to encourage players to push into harder content is my ideal solution. Which is what I think these Dinar type systems should be designed to do, not just be a consolation prize for not winning that BiS on the 61st kill of a boss.

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There’s multiple threads about people complaining they were even RECOMMENDED m+ from a delve reward

It really didn’t. There wasn’t any huge influx of m+ participation compared to prior weeks.

I never said people quit. I simply said you take from peter to pay paul. But the sooner people meet their goals, the sooner they take breaks.

That doesn’t matter. It’s the fact that I do not have to go do the content to get the rewards. I’m getting great items for basically free.

I would rather the gear have been given out to help people finish their late season goals than given only to people who already achieved the max rewards for their chosen content. The way the cartel chips are designed makes them really useless to me, which feels bad.

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After doing searches on both google and the forums, I couldn’t find any real “outcry” A few people grumbling in a majority of people who praised the idea. (For WoW, it would be weird if there wasn’t a few grumbling.)

This is speculative. Blizzard doesn’t release engagement numbers and mostly people are guessing based off Raider I.O. Numbers, which may not be accurate.

Ah I see now. You think that people “above the median” should be the only players doing hard content. And players who are “below the median” shouldn’t be encouraged to try harder content because people “above the median” might be held back from completing their goals sooner. Sounds like a solid business plan for a live service game.

And yet, most evidence seems to indicate that a majority of players don’t do harder content because of social pressures and anxiety, and not really a skill issue.

Except it does matter. In all three systems Dinar, Bullion, and Cartel Chips, you have to do content to get the reward and then do more content to level it up.

“basically” free isn’t free. And I would argue that none of these systems are free at all, especially if you have to do content to obtain and unlock the rewards as well as upgrade them.

No one would ever say that earning a currency to buy an item is getting it for “free”
Your shadow boxing friend.

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You didnt look very hard.

No weve got numbers on m+ participation. There wasnt any influx

Thats not at all what that is saying. Doesnt even have to do with easy vs hard content at all.

Given the same content, youre extending it the lower half and shortening for the top half.

All that social anxiety comes from lack of skill

I do not. I get Hero track items from LFR. No leveling up required. Hero track is the base. Thats 16-20 upgrades worth for doing the base level.

OP, what you need to realize is that Cartel Chips ARE NEITHER reward/progression.

They are a retention mechanic, nothing more.

It’s a way to lure players back to active status after they’ve finished their goals for the season because gearing is so ripping fast. What better way than to dangle free(*) loot.

The funnier part is that adding M+ items to the vendor defeats that intended purpose completely, so of course they didn’t wanna do it initially. Now you can fill slots with things that are actually elusive due to RNG and be fully outfitted. While dimwits are losing their mind scrabbling to get 2 raid pieces, any smart players will be finishing their 12s and calling it quits for the season.

Not from Blizzard.

If it requires more than 10 minutes to dig up, it’s not an “outcry”

WoW gearing isn’t a zero-sum game. I can see if it were making the content itself more accessible to lower players, it would take away from the top players. But a LFR player with a mythic trinket, doesn’t diminish anything from the mythic player with the same trinket.

That’s weird, because I know high skilled Mythic raiders, that still have anxiety issues despite parsing at the top of their servers. Extremely shallow view of complex social dynamics.

Honestly, I think if you can endure LFR you probably deserved it. =)

No idea what you’re referencing here. My guess is the bullions from Dragonflight season 4, which I agree was probably a bit too generous. However, in order for that Heroic track to be maxed out, you had to grind a lot currency, which you don’t seem to think is earning the reward. I, on the other hand, think everytime I have to repeat content over and over again just to earn a currency to buy a thing or upgrade a thing, feel like it’s a job.

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Same API. Blizzard has said so, so yes.

Just use the forums for cracked keystone and go through the threads

Thats not the issue

This is the issue.
It lengthens the play time and engagement for lower half while reducing the same engagement for the top half.

Robbing peter to pay paul

Clearly not enough anxiety to keep them from doing harder content which was your entire argument. Thanks for proving my point for me. People who play well arent afraid of group content (aka harder content)

Puzzling Cartel Chips…you dont even have any idea what it is youre trying to argue. Youre just arguing and hoping no one fact checks you lol

Then RPGs arent for you. Single player, once through type of games are for you

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For Heroic Raiders all these will do is collect dust and rot in our bags until we decide to simply use for transmogs.

Not useful at all.

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It is indeed just like that. A spit in the face. A goethe like joke.
How many people can kill gally myth 10k? 20? 50?
“we want you to raid, but at the same time here is a complimentary slap”

Sorry your post was a bit tl;dr for me, but I see you put a lot of thought into it. As a lower level player I think Blizz knows exactly what they are doing. The cartel chips as progression works for me as I will go into LFR more often, as I both enjoy that content AND would like a reward.

I enjoy group content but find more and more that what I want is queable content that I can do on my own schedule. I’m sure I’m not the only player like this. So yes the chips are about player retention across the widest swath of players possible. It’s part of a bigger picture where they are adding other means to get better gear for the lower geared players as the season wears on.

For the mythic plus/heroic raiders who gain little from the chips, I can see where that would sting. I can’t speak for everyone, just my own little corner where the cartel chips are a welcome addition, and I do think Blizz knows what they are doing.