The Feral AoE changes in S3 are painful

Classes Druid
1

Apex Predator changes - Probably the biggest one.

The curve for this proccing was adjusted in favor of single target and lower target fights. But on the far end of the curve the nerf to the proc rate in mass AoE was significant.

In my experience in a mass AoE fight, I will get a handful of procs but nothing anywhere close to what we used to have. On top of that, when procs do start rolling in, they often overlap and override procs before I can even get my global CD back, leading to lost Apex procs. As a pack of say 6-10 mobs starts dying, Apex will noticeably proc more often, and it acts as a sort of accidental execute phase, but this synergizes very poorly with Sabertooth (and other DoTs) since the fight is ending and Sabertooth ramps our DoT damage. The whole thing feels backwards. We want the DoTs to be ramping up early in the fight, not late.

What was this change for? All it has done is homogenize builds for Ferals. Apex is now mandatory on Full AoE, Compromise AoE, and ST builds. In addition, The proc rate in my experience for Mass AoE has been abysmal, leading to our AoE damage being significantly reduced because Sabertooth uptime is now jeopardized.

Some suggestions for Apex Predator (Either/Or):

A) Let Ferals get multiple stacks of Apex (like clearcasting with Moment of Clarity) so what few procs we do get in AoE aren’t wasted if they proc on top of each other (which happens to me a lot!). This will allow bad luck protection and let the Feral player space out Apex procs to maximize uptime on Sabertooth. Either that or do something to make sure Apex procs can “backlog” and proc at more reasonable cadences instead of the feast/famine peaks we get now.

B) Revert it back to how it was pre-10.2. Leave it as a core AoE talent and put its curve back the way it was. Its proc rates were perfect as they were. We can go back to Lunar Inspiration or some other talents for Pure ST situations. Besides, we’re usually changing builds before a raid pull anyway, and M+ is almost always an AoE-fest due to the timer mechanic (except perhaps on bolstering weeks where more careful consideration of builds may be needed). Dire Fixation was a step in the right direction for resolving the imbalance of ST/AoE builds in M+ and I applaud that addition.

C) Flatten the curve as it is now. The current proc-rate in high-target situations is too punishing. It has a cascade effect into Sabertooth uptime which is a big part of what’s murdering our AoE.

D) Extend the duration of Sabertooth proc by a few seconds.

Rampant Ferocity changes

Rampant Ferocity’s damage was significantly reduced.

Okay, I have no idea what happened here. Rampant Ferocity was a talent that did a decent bit of AoE if circumstances were right (mob density) and encouraged smart play with mob position manipulation and geometrical awareness. It had perfect synergy with Apex procs and maintaining Sabertooth uptime and a fun reward-style gameplay with Vortex/Typhoon combos. Now its damage is laughable, even after the last-minute 10% buff before patch release. It used to be a top-6 damage source and now it’s maybe lucky to hit top-10. Many feral players have stopped using it altogether.

Some suggestions for Rampant Ferocity (Either/Or):

TBH just put its damage back how it was, or boost it through the roof. It was one of the only things keeping our AoE reasonable and it’s been gutted.

These changes to Feral in 10.2 have been head-scratchers except maybe the addition of Saber Jaws to bring back bite-spam builds, but the Rampant-Apex-COLAD AoE corridor has been decimated for seemingly no reason, which in turn makes Sabertooth weaker making us even weaker overall - possibly unintentionally. Things were balanced, and by changing things this much that balance has been completely disrupted. S1 Feral felt amazing. Blasting the tree boss adds in Algethar Academy was a highlight of M+ and Feral felt solid. S2 comes along and the tierset felt like a Rube Goldberg machine of combo points when combined with the changes to Berserk so it was already heading downhill in “feel.” S3 comes along and just guts our M+ damage. Awesome. Can we just have S1 DF Feral back? Please?

It almost feels intentional and not in a malicious way. As in a “field test setting up something big” kind of way. Perhaps a huge rework of Feral coming in the future? Future-proofing for Augvoker and other support specs? War Within testing revealed us to be OP? We still have a whole fated season to go, though?

And some might say “Ferals were in the RWF you can’t complain!” Yes, the least-bad Druid spec (sorry boomies) was in the RWF with mostly single target builds and did respectable damage with giga-BiS. That’s great. Can we have our AoE back though? We already had ST builds in S1 and S2 with Swarm and Lunar Inspiration and we managed ok. Saber Jaws comes along and now Feral is totally fixed in all regards? I think not. Last I heard Saber Jaws doesn’t even work with Apex. Maybe if it did then our AoE wouldn’t be as mediocre.

TL;DR: Fix the Apex proc curve, if nothing else. It hasn’t changed since Legion and Shadowlands, and now that it has, the entire synergistic line of Feral AoE talents which was molded around it collapses in M+ and AoE.

5 Likes
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Nothing has changed. The damage reduction overall from Rampant Fury was negligible.

The proc rate is noticeable but not enough to make a huge impact in your overall.

And the talents havent collapsed. They havent changed. The only thing thats changed is with the new tier set you’re forced to go left side for Feral Frenzy and the distribution of talent points doesnt leave room for RF.

If you want RF, you give up ToW. Its just your choice of playstyle at that point

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I could not agree more with the issues you have brought up. The sad thing, this was talked about in the PTR for 10.2 and certain “elite” druids said that the nerf was good and beneficial because it “FELT” better, even though the spreadsheets said otherwise.

That leads to a problem with ferals in general (for a VERY long time). My “feels” is good when I play, and I feel like I am king dps. But the truth is, you are doing much less damage for 2x as much effort and heavily relying on RNG for FB and crit damage (this spec is worse than Outlaw in a lot of ways when dealing with melee RNG). Some folks are not well liked by the RNG gods. When the spec relies heavily on RNG, it isn’t going to get you into groups because the damage output, by itself, is unreliable. This is an issue Blizzard has never addressed (and to this day, refuse to)

Let’s, also, not talk about that these “Elite” feral spec players running with pocket augmentation evokers and discipline priests. They are getting buffs, that in most groups, ferals will not get unless the group is built around the feral spec. There is a reason that the feral spec, as a whole, and on average, is not in the top 10 dps in raids. The spec is not asked to be brought into anything +20 in mythic keys, unless the group is specifically designed around the huge feral issues. But this is a different issue for another time.

Sorry on the rant Tuarri, but I have reached a point with the feral community, that they lie to themselves and the community through omission, when doing PVE content. It is easy to say people need to LTP. Some do, but the vast majority don’t. The “elites” and community folks refuse to admit that their group composition is why they are “good”. By themselves, solo, they are in the same pathetic state the spec is in. Even watching the feral druid videos on Youtube, the authors openly admit their dps gains were from the group make-up and not from anything they did themselves. That is not saying they suck by any means, but they are honest about how they accomplished their numbers. Ferals rely on others to do their job and look good, where other melee classes/specs can shine on their own merit, with little augmentation from other specs. Augmentation just makes them that much more powerful.

6 Likes
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Even if RF’s damage isn’t down compared to seasons ago, its value as a talent and contribution to overall damage is diminished by the fact that Apex procs less in AoE and RF worked with Apex procs. Ideally what someone would do is alternate Primal Wrath (with TOW) and an Apex proc (with RF) in AoE. They were a powerful tag-team. Ferals would reach a critical point in mass AoE where they wouldn’t run out of energy because of Apex procs (with SotF refunding energy), but still had to calculate spending it to maximize damage. Spamming Apex could probably work for damage if things were clustered on the tank, but maintaining Sabertooth by spacing out Apex procs was the play in most situations. Now we straight up don’t get enough procs. Hell, I’m finding myself energy-starved with Sabertooth dropping off during the Ozumat gauntlet in Toilet of the Tides when cleaving down ink adds to move forward. Maybe I just have terrible luck?

I just have to disagree all around. Mass AoE doesn’t feel anywhere as good as it did in seasons past. Our ramp sucks, things aren’t proccing, and when they do proc it’s in “garbage time.”

And I don’t know of anyone who dropped TOW for RF. RF was a powerful byproduct of Apex’s reliability, and said reliability is now gone. I’d bet my left paw that’s the reason not as many ferals take it anymore. It might be decent on fort+bolster weeks due to smaller pulls being wise which plays into Apex’s new proc curve, but it still gets outperformed by a single point in Carnivorous Instinct.

1 Like
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And we arent asking to be a S tier spec, i just want to be more competitive and have more fun on m+, giving ww buff on this next reset and not giving any attention to feral rlly hurts my feelings.

2 Likes
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So this is still a thing and still the go to if you don’t have the current 4pc. Not to mention you still have predator so it’s not like you were running out of energy if you don’t get your Apex proc anyway.

No it wasn’t. In AoE scenarios, you try to burn the Apex proc asap so it doesn’t get overwritten. The 4 second buff to Rip was just secondary and passive. You got more damage by spamming the procs than you did by “the play in most situations”.

You’re not pressing Tiger’s Fury enough.

But with the current 2pc, your AoE with spamming PW with ToW (which is what we did in the past as well), far exceeds what you were gaining with RF and Apex Procs. Our AoE is up in comparison to the past, so i’m not sure what’s not feeling “as good”.

No one is going to. Not unless every encounter you’re only dealing with 4-5 mobs at a max.

It’s because we don’t have the points to allocate to it. You’re still getting proc’s like crazy. In fact, Apex procs consist of more than 50% of our overall Bites being pressed.

Because 6% damage bonus to ALL abilities outweighs the 4-5% overall damage you’d gain from RF.

7

Cool.

We’re running the risk of an argument over hypothetical scenarios, sims, and situational theorycrafting, or worse, which isn’t my goal. I’d also rather run mythic keys than talk about this anymore.

I said what I said for Blizzard’s consideration. At the end of the day I just want the spec to thrive. I guess time will tell if my gut feelings and anecdotal observations are correct.

1 Like
8

Take a point away, from where you can, and put it into RF. Run a few dungeons, and then revert the points and see how damage holds up.

You’ll see its not hypothetical scenarios, hyperbole, or “worse”.

The theory crafting has been done and tested and the damage is highest without RF. And i just double checked, they even upped the damage of RF going into 10.2 by 10%

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Rampant fury? rampant ferocity? also there has been 13 changes to the rampant ferocity.

the nerf of rampant ferocity is very significant. they do not get any benefits from talents as they are just flat damage.

before it was considered as part of ferocious bite and got all the buffs that bites get.

seems like all your replies are just sayin no for saying no sake.

1 Like
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The OP is talking about the changes going into S3, not the entirety of the abilities altogether.

So, no, not going into S3.
In July (part of S2) they changed it to AP %.
Going into S3, they changed the proc rate of Apex, and buffed the damage of RF.

The change from S1 to S2 (when they rolled out the changes) could be argued. But the difference going into S3 is of little consequence from what it was back in July and what people played with for the majority of S2.

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I jumped back on my feral druid this season. Other classes seem to put out far greater aoe damage effortlessly. The ‘elite ferals’ that Blizzard seems to listen to (and there are really are few in high end content) have never represented the broader player base well.

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yes so its not ‘nothing has changed’
already one wrong.

literally nobody is taking the talent anymore, one of two main aoe talents.

im just starting to read your elitsm replies spotting the wrong left and right.

wrong again. that wasnt how it was before. could taken both and still been fine. even now, its not forced to take only one or the other.

i can go on and on refute all of your replies, but ima go actually play the game.

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Because the new tier set requires FF and the bonus from the 4 set far outweighs the contribution that RF would add.

Not because the ability got nerfed into the ground.

Before you werent required to take dire fixation and FF either.

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not true. s2 set bonus, which directly affected agility, made it NERFED rampant work. (also current tier scaling)
now it does below 3-4% overall, where as before 6%+, even falling behind sudden ambush. so the nerf they did back in july is yes ‘nerfed into the ground’

dire fixation does not matter. you have to take either sudden ambush or rampant.

and before people never took sudden ambush. you realize you need either sudden or rampant to progress down the talent tree right?

so wrong again!

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LnwrFh82Hc7pTxMy#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=2

May want to check your sources.

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While this is very very untypical, was playing around on the target dummies looking to see if there was a better place to put the rampant ferocity point…

50 seconds before my first apex proc.

Thought I’d deselected it somehow but 50 seconds in, “hello, I’m still here”

FWIW, so far it’s looking like Predator is better place for the point and Merciless Claws is a wash. 2 minutes on AoE, no 3min CD or trinkets.

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Just ran a quick 3 minute test, and I had 21 Apex Procs.

First one at 11 seconds.

/shrug

RNG is RNG?

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im only 2900 in M+, but so many classes do better aoe. i don’t feel like i can even come close lol.