If there is to be another faction war two or three expansions from now then it really should be the Alliance being the agressors. Just to avoid the all out cliche’ of “Horde Mean! Smash Alliance! RAWR!”
Let them call it a revenge attack for Teldrassil if they want. That worked for Daelin Proudmoore after all.
If not, agreed that it would be best if they just never touched faction war ever again.
Rant Incoming
As someone who stopped playing from Wrath until Legion my biggest disappointment is how much worse the faction conflict became.
In Vanilla to Wrath it was mostly fueled by mutual prejudices as well as practical points of contention like territorial disputes and resource scarcity. The Reds and Blues were never in all out war but there were flashpoints, proxy wars and paramilitary raids in the form of PvP.
This was a very good idea. Everyone appeared reasonable. Like in the Undercity you had RAS doing horrifying things to humans, but then you got into Scarlet territory and saw humans doing horrifying things to sapient undead. Man’s inhumanity to man begetting more man’s inhumanity to man. Not exactly Pulitzer worthy but jaw dropping to 12 year old me who was mostly familiar with ‘shoot the bad guy’ narratives.
So imagine my disappointment when now mid 20s me returned after the better part of a decade to see that the story was now being written by people with a 12 year old’s understanding of nuance.
To the best of my knowledge the Horde is constantly a cruel instigator and the Alliance are always the beleaguered suffering heroes - trying ever so hard to coexist with these monstrous savage races.
What a downgrade from Warcraft 3. Where we saw both Humans and Orcs causing big problems by being bigoted, fighty pricks. With the more wordly, open minded attitudes of say Thrall and Jania being shown as the best way forward. The first cutscene was a human and orc soldier nearly killing eachother before both presumably being killed by an infernal. The message was clear - coexist or die.
WoW, I thought, was going to be an interesting exploration of ‘How?’ on that note. And the answer was not very well but, managing. The Horde and Alliance would constantly dick eachother over but like at the Outland Dark Portal would come together to defend their home. And that was a good enough basis for a setting as any other.
But then came Garrosh, evoking the tragedy of nuclear arms in Theramore - you know the only human power on Azeroth that might’ve become at least neutral to the Horde? Now you could say “Well that was the story of the Horde overcoming it’s dark roots as personified by Garrosh”. And hey that could’ve worked but now we have BFA and, Jesus Tapdancing Christ.
The Forsaken kind of highlight the descent of the factions into a narrative dead end for me. In Vanilla through Wrath they were always the darkest on the morally gray gradiant. But you’d frequently encounter quest givers who had no ulterior motives and were legitimately just benevolent and kind people. You’d see glimmers of enduring humanity behind the haunted, hungry eyes now and again that reminded you the setting was not cut and dry. Good and honorable souls persist even in the darkest of places and times. A simple but accurate and I’d argue important moral to the fable Warcraft is.
But today? Puppy murdering bad guys who are unrepentant pricks to entire populations they’ve just now met and have no reason to hate. Outside token sensible undead Voss you’ve Admiral Tattersail legitimately distraught about the fate of her living captains and that’s it.
I do at least hope with this council idea they’re moving the Horde back to what it ought to have continued to be. So long as Thrall, the walking fantasy Orc Moses, they can’t be dumb chaotic evil bad guys.
But I’ve zero idea where this leaves the Alliance. Who are now run by Emperor ‘Cantweallgetalong’ Anduin. So unless he puts Trollbane in charge before fing off like Thrall did I’m betting we’re going to get the Horde being out of control lunatics next time we need a new BG.
Except there actual Horde poster like Droite who literally say they got everything they wanted this expansion.
Goblin leader change, honour restored, Sylvanas gone, story focus, thrall is back, better allied races and etc. To say the Horde don’t have it better or things are in any way equivalent is incredibly inaccurate.
Horde poster’s don’t really have a valid complaint anymore about being the bad guys because thats just Sylvanas.
The only suckers on the Horde side are Sylvanas fans. Which to be fair we don’t know what will happen to her. She may yet survive.
I think it’s rather the opposite - that Alliance players want the Alliance to do something that shows they’re worthy of respect, and think it’s so necessary for the story that Horde players’ objections aren’t enough to sway them.
I think a lot of people do believe this - but either a) as above, it’s not enough to sway them from they think is necessary even if the Horde player doesn’t like it, b) they think the Horde faction can be targetted independently of the Horde player, or c) they’re angry enough at what -already- happened to the Alliance that they’re fine watching the game burn as long as they get theirs.
Or, as I sadly see more and more, there’s a lot of once-midline posters who’ve been grouped with their hardliners often enough that they just stop offering olive branches because they just get ignored and still lumped in with the crazy positions offered by a completely unrelated person just because they have the same color background.
Honestly, I think this is the only big issue. There’s a lot of reasonable people here - but it only takes one pitiless/mocking poster to make both sides leap back into their entrenched us-vs-them positions an believe that the other side is clearly too unreasonable to deal with.
I’m pretty sure that’s the entirety of the W type posters. I’m just laughing at the farcical nature of this story now, but so long as the narrative starts treating this as a “take Sylvanas’ head and never speak of this again” kind of thing, and we go back to a quasi-friendly rivalry instead of outright enmity, I’ll be quite happy with the faction rivalry.
Nobody won this war. I mean, the Horde won this war before generously and mercifully offering to call it a draw, but the one thing I’ll grant to the whining posters is that they’re accurate about one thing: the question isn’t who won, it’s who’s the biggest loser.
you don’t find as a problem for those who actually liked the character, specially forsakens players who just lost one of their major racial fantasy?
and are of the verge of losing everything if calia comes from them and changes them entirely what they are supposed to be despite the fact that is none like it was sold to them in the first place?.
okay not gonna lie thats funny.
then why you are so opposed to my idea? 
Not really, no. My favorite character was Ysera and she got oneshotted by a dungeon boss and then put down like a rabid dog for quest blues. Things happen.
Finding life after undeath? If those players are so one note they can’t find characterization beyond murder cult that makes life miserable for the other faction, that’s on them, and I really don’t have that much sympathy, because they clearly have none themselves.
That was supposed to be the question and existential crisis they were dealing with all along, Ethel. The very reason the Scarlet Crusade wasn’t right all along.
Because that trail ends in either the Forsaken or the Alliance dead. Eventually you run out of troops, or you run out screamy target dummies.
Seriously the fact the story made Jania want to genocide Orcs like her father is stomach churning levels of vile.
What in the airborne fornication was wrong about a story how letting go of intergenerational prejudice, even at severe personal cost, was the only way forward for a better world?
With today’s IRL problems in mind I’m speechless Blizz managed to retroactively screw up a story point as utterly simple as ‘bigotry is bad’.
I’m not going to blame Blizz for human wrongdoing because their writer’s are bad. But as someone who did play Vanilla I couldn’t help but notice Barrens chat was a lot worse in Classic. It was never some hub of enlightened conversation but - mainly remember Chuck Norris jokes ad nauseam, teenagers lying about their sexual prowess and griefing about the location of Mankirk’s Wife. Didn’t recall so many ‘jokes’ that seemed aimed at making certain portions of the playerbase feel pointedly unwelcome.
Now I do think that’s more an indictment of this poop party of a time we’re in than anything Blizzard is doing. But come the hell on Blizz. A story going from “You’ve to work with different looking peope from different looking cultures to save the world” to “you should be haunted by ghosts singing a song about how much you suck for doubting your racist dad” is like the least helpful thing.
I get they tried to course correct but after making the Horde totally down with Genocide McGhostboobs it comes off as hollow.
I object less to the “aggression” part than the “righteous” part.
I think it would be more accurate to say that at this current moment in time, the Horde needs Alliance hostility more than aggression - aggression is almost certain to further damage the Horde.
Yup, gotta make sure they don’t even have the moral high ground next time we kick them into the dirt.
You’re basically the Alliance player’s caricature of a Horde player.
Just a minute ago you were complaining Alliance aggression and hostility would make you feel bad though.
You make no sense Jellex.
So do you want Alliance aggression or not? You can’t have it both ways.
So in essence.
you don’t care for the favs chars of others.
so nothing really matters and those characters that are either ruined or killed for other people should just deal with it and accept they they were screwed.
no matter if people actually liked the character in the first place?
i am not really a sylvanas fan but i do understand the problem of having your fav going this route,ruined, and most likely killed for loot.
this sounds as a bit hypocrital if you are truly trying to mock ally players but at the same time you say something like this.
why exactly you are trying to make life more miserable for the other faction then?
aren’t you doing exactly what you are criticizing right here?
You either don’t really have sympathy for other players or you are just trolling for the luls.
to be honest i am not really in a position to know what forsakens players
should have or want. but i don’t think that you either.
considering that neither you or me are truly invested in that race.
That doesn’t mean that i am blind to their problems.
yeah and it doesn’t have at the expense of losing the equivalent of elune (in terms of cultural value)
or basically being portrayed as villains who deserves everything they get.
i can’t believe i am defending forsakens.
i think blizzard just wanted to push the story in a shock value way, the fact that they turned one of the most peaceful characters in, at some point a genocidal monsters who wanted nothing more than (jutified imo) revenge speaks volume in how much they love the big shock value moments, the tragedy.
but not with dealing with the actual consequences of doing things like that.
even to this day the story has to deal with it in many ways.
and to show how much they suck for ruining the story like this.
well in this aspect i am grateful that they didn’t really full that route with her.
i feel like it was much more easier to make her a full time villain but they choose the harder route. something that i am really glad, to be honest.
Oh, alright. i get it.
that is going to be really hard as long as we have anduin in charge.
but that doesn’t mean that he necessarily will stay in power forever.
I’m probably sounding like a broken record, but so much this.
We already had Garrosh and that whole debacle. Why make the Horde so stupidly villainous -again-? It’s the last thing either faction needs, and was devastating for both of their characterizations.
In Naz, Lor’themar references working with the Alliance against Garrosh… but where was that sentiment earlier? We got a whole patch where Saurfang was sad about genocide and no one else seemed to care that it happened. Horde players were stuck waiting for the inevitable popular good-guy-Horde rebellion that surely the writers just hadn’t implemented hints for yet, while Alliance got to watch a whole patch of Horde being totally cool with genocide (with only limited remorse in further patches) until it looks like they’re about to lose (except not, because when the Horde gets split, they become 300x more powerful somehow) and suddenly they’re all like “Heeeey, so peace now?” again. (And without any hint of Horde concessions, apologies, or definitive plans for how to make sure the Horde can’t pull off another civilian-slaughtering raid. Just a few hints would have gone a long way.)
It was stupid and insulting for both parties.
And now, after the story has raised tensions and anger to a boiling point - it just drops it. “Nope, peace, go punch a squid.”
I can’t respect either faction after what this plot did to them: The Horde’s mess of a plot showed that they easily revert to innocent-slaying glee no matter how many times they promise never again, and the Alliance wreck of a plot shows that they’ll gladly trade hundreds of dead civilians and children for an apology- no, not even an apology. For absolutely nothing.
I joined this game because I liked both factions.
The Horde was a bunch of survivors trying to make a new life for themselves, despite the bad hands fate had handed them and despite whatever evils they or their ancestors may have once done.
The Alliance was a group of civilizations that had been rocked to their core, attempting to recover and struggling to keep its lands and its people safe.
BfA took both those characterizations and utterly ruined them past the point of no return.
She’s been like this since Cataclysm when she blighted Gilneas, and she was never considered trustworthy, that’s not much change.
Not really, I can laugh at their current misery without asking for more.
The former, no matter how badly hurt one side is, everyone here is so self-interested that they demand they take it out on the other. See example with the amputations above, just know I’m laughing less at Kenny and more anyone who decides to play Kenny and didn’t expect horrible things to happen.
Blizzard does. Now we get Caelia. And cue more whining from the type W players.
Given I’m about 75% sure Elune made a deal with the Jailer…
So stop?
actually , i think that she has been like this since the arthas book when she melt the face of a farmer girl testing the blight.
but that’s beside the point.
because it is also true that blizzard lied them at their faces.
who the hell is kenny.
i don’t really think that blizzard knows what their players want.
and that is relevant because…
Ammea: So wrong, they can make even Ethel change sides.
This is the entire reason I leave my faction preference out of it. I don’t refer to myself as a Horde player, or an Alliance player, and I try to remain as neutral as possible.
People get so damn dug in that they can’t even begin to acknowledge the reality that “their” understanding of something isn’t universal.
The main reason why I stopped caring for the Forsaken after WoTLK; they just became stupid evil - and nothing else.
I’m worried already; some of the quests have Baine literally being the only voice to speak on this council. They need to lay out clear details on how this council functions.
I’ve been advocating for Anduin being removed in a coup, or stepping down willingly, and the faction as a whole appointing a High General, like Anduin Lothar/Turalyon, to lead the Alliance. This individual cannot be a racial leader, and cannot actively represent their race during their tenure as faction leader.
So sick and tired of Anduin and humans being at the forefront of everything.
This.
And I can only advocate all over again not to walk into this obvious trap. We can hate the other faction all we want and there will always be numerous and completely justified reasons for it, but let’s not forget we’re all able to think for ourselves and realize we’re manipulated into doing exactly that.
It was fun when it was that somewhat healthy rivalry but it has long exceeded this stage and now the only solution to the faction conflict seems to be wiping out the other once and for all.
Which we know can’t happen because factions are the “pillar of the game” and all that.
They can do with us whatever they want, whenever they want, we are mortal enemies one day and best friends the next, and there’s absolutely no explanation as to why this is, and we can either roll with it or quit the game and be done with it it but I guess we all love this stupid game way too much…
Yes please, take your own advice. Your posts contribute absolutely nothing.