The Demon Hunter problem

Classes Monk
1

This is a little bit of a rant and maybe hyperbolic, but I feel like Bliz sort of dropped Monk like a hot potato and focus their love on Demon Hunter when Legion came out.

I remember during the MoP announcement and Monk preview, the devs were VERY excited to show off the new monk class. You could see it and hear it.
But once Legion came out, they have been all about Demon Hunters.

They removed damage and heals from Chi Torpedo, then they turned around and gave DH’s Fel Rush, which does do damage.

They gave them the equivalent of Healing Spheres, in the form of Soul Fragments but the last time I compared, they actually healed for more (not sure if still true)

Basically my issue is that DH feels like a rip off of Monk, but is better.
Like if you wanted Monks to be good, just make them good, don’t make an entirely new class that is incredibly similar to an existing one and make it better.
It feels really bad for the people who made the 1st class and enjoyed it.

Maybe it’s all in my head though, and just my perception.
What are other people’s thoughts?

33 Likes
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I think you have it right. Havoc basically does most of what WW does but better. The specs are too similar and one is better while being easier to play.

11 Likes
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I’ve been saying this for months. No1 ever listens to Pyro. DH = WW 2.0

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I much prefer the monk kit and abilities, but the demon hunter is flashier, better-designed, and easier. It kind of bums me out.

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Just wait until they announce a third (healing) spec for it called “Chaosweaver” which has a channeled heal that makes all other spells instant but you can move while channeling it.

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Still true and they can talent to spawn more, we have to land the killing blow with kick.

“Yes officer, this comment right here.”

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It’s just the problem of “why play windwalker when you can play havoc thats way easier and get better results?”

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Alright, I was inspired by this post to actually go play my (capped) DH again last night. I even ran a Heroic to dip my toes in dungeons on them. I figure since I plan to main this monk in SL (or at least level it first), I should see what the hubbub is.

Just to get tank out of the way, I tried it (out in the world) and felt plenty durable, but it didn’t seem to be a massive win to me over Brewmaster. Maybe I’m too used to my ox statue taunt or whatever, but I could take or leave Vengeance.

Okay, for DPS, I immediately started laughing when I first signed in again as Havoc and looked at my bars. I had almost a direct analogue to each “kind” of spell I had on WW: Eye Beam in the same keybind as FoF, (whatever the big nuke is) in the same spot as RSK. It took maybe a minute or two of tuning talents before I “just got it” and could chain kill groups in the world.

Dungeons were just as easy, but the fact that my AoE rotation was basically the same as my ST rotation made it feel pretty stale almost immediately. For the ilevel of my DH alt, my DPS was quite adequate (with bursts of outrageous), but I was ready to stop being a DH by the end of the run.

I could see someone that loves DH and its simplicity coming to monk and feeling like they “have to do more work”, but DH kinda feels too much like playing with cheat codes / Game Genie for me. Sure, it is fun to see Mario jump really high for an afternoon, but at some point, you want to go back to the real game. I also happen to love healing, so I don’t think I could main anything without a proper heal spec available on it. I realize I’m not in the majority on that one.

FWIW, the SL Alpha conversations around Monk are mostly ambivalent/positive. People are excited to see some BrM spells come back, curious about ToD changes, etc, but more than anything, are just curious if we’ll “be competitive”. We’re not having or kit gutted or anything. If you look at the DH feedback (for both specs), they’re filled with responses like “these changes feel like the designer has never played DH.” Not a good look!

Rejoice, fellow monks. We’re super cool in our own right. I won’t begrudge anyone that wants DH over monk because they just want something easy. IMO we should be thinking of it the other way, and when we find a player that says “DH is kinda neat but it got boring really fast”, perhaps we should encourage them to try Monk and grow our numbers a bit.

26 Likes
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Monza here gets it.
Nicely put :metal:

2 Likes
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Fixed it for you man, and I totally agree. Monks were amazing in Mists, and blizzard butchered it and every other class in WoD, and made literally everything worse with class design in Legion and as if that could not be bested in how horrible things can become, BFA has shown us they can invent a new rock bottom.

Never fear WarCraft Shadow Legends expansion is here to give back some of the abilities we once had, but not even close to all of them, and did you hate Artifact weapon grinding or Azurite gear? Well, never fear we disguised that as Covenant grind that you gotta do to stay on top, and hey because the Garrisons and proving grounds were so amazing we doubled the budget and combined them into ONE THING so everyone can be locked into a solo box YAY!

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DH is basically a Frankenstein of a bunch of nerfed and pruned things from Monk, DK , Warlock and kinda Rogue.

At least they are getting some noticeable nerfs in Shadowlands but lets see if those actually stick.

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Every forum I read, there is class jealousy or incessant whining about XYZ and how their chosen class doesn’t top meters or doesn’t have this or that and Blizzard has some sort of hidden agenda and hatred for said class.

I’ve played Monks since MOP, I’ve enjoyed them through the years and still have fun. They’ve had a fast paced rotation and style. I enjoy the lore, and don’t feel the need to top meters to have a good time. I do well in PvP, not really a detriment in PvE and now leveling this one up on the horde side for SL… If you’re a min maxer meta player, have a whole army at 120 so you can FoTM if it satisfies you to be on top. DH has a lot of tools similar to a Monk, and most players can accomplish a bit more with less effort, sure. But every class is so homogenized now in this game, most classes can do everything to appease the crowd (which sucks).

Monks, don’t feel unique to this. Every class forum has their obligatory this class rocked X expansion, now Blizz hates and forgot us!!!

We have a whole lotta armchair game designers on here… Now, bring me the hate.

1 Like
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Totally, and no hate from me. I think the difference though is that the parallels between Monks and DH are so strong, that it’s very easy to understand why folks feel replaced when they see DH with strong representation across the board.

For myself, I fell in love with my monk in WoD when I started playing it in PvP. It wasn’t super good (or I wasn’t), but it was just so much fun. I’ve continued to enjoy the depth and complexity of Windwalker throughout the entire expansion. I do have a DH, though it’s not well geared. I have noticed that it’s much, much easier to play, but is also much more effective.

That said, I wouldn’t trade for DH… I’d rather have an engaging rotation than a simple one. It would be nice to see some increases in overall effectiveness though. One would expect the class with a higher skill ceiling to perform better, but class balance is a roller coaster after all :slight_smile:

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Except monk has never been on top in pve, so this is unique to monk.
I like monk, it’s the only reason I even played past cata, but to come into the class forums and basically say “stop crying” is just trolling.
We have legitimate concerns because our dps has been lack luster for a very long time.

Why does everyone who say this always hide behind an alt?

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This is one complaint I don’t understand especially if you have been playing the game for 15 years.

MoP and some classes in WoD had by far some of the best class design throughout the games history and it also so happened to be the most homogenized. Legion and BFA are one of the least homogenized expansions outside of maybe vanilla and TBC.

Homogenization is fine if done correctly.

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I mean classes had a lot of tools and some of that overlapped, they all had a unique feel to it. All had a class identity.

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really i think monk should get some stuff from demon hunter as compensation. well maybe not compensation, but just some fun qol stuff.

first, with healing orbs. as previously mentioned, dh soul shards are basically healing orbs but better. with DH you don’t have to manually collect them, you can just zip and weave and shuck and jive your way around and you succ them right up.

second, is a double jump. i can’t be alone in feeling like a class based on mastering mind, body, and is meant to be extraordinarily agile and mobile should be able to also have a double jump. with windwalker it’s right there on the tin. mistweavers could harvest the mists to propel them into the air, and i guess brewmaster could do like a scrooge mcduck pogo jump with their staff.

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Don’t forget called “windwalkers” too

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Are they though? I hear if anything they are getting buffed with that 15% less healing talent…

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If you are talking about pvp, ww monks are in a better spot than DHs. WW monks can do well in 2’s and 3’s. Whereas a DH is better in 2’s and not really that great in 3s. DHs are squishy after their defensive is down they go down fast. WW monks have abilities to escape, port, karma and other heals.

If you are talking about PVE, then DHS have an easier time to dps because of design I may give you that. But WW monks that gear right can be on top with hit mastery combo if you know what you are doing.

1 Like