I didn’t know Classic had m+.
We should have a Raid set and a Dungeon set ala Vanilla era 
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What even are these complaints? We are mad that players can invest a handful of hours a week and craft nice gear instead of hoping for rng to save us?
Really?
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It is much easier to gear via raid than m+. And yes I did math. This is for keys only. Max end of dungeon drop is 427. To upgrade 1 item to the point it can be upgraded to 441 you would need 60 Wyrm crests. Max you would get for timing is 12. So you would need to time 6 keys to get a 427 item to 437. And then time 2 keys at the 16 level to get it upgraded to 441. You would need to run at max 75 keys at an 11 to upgrade every slot to 437. And then an additional 12 keys at a 16 to upgrade every slot to 441. That’s pre vault. A vault only offers max 1 item at 447 a week.
Crafting gear is a bit simpler. But as we are only able to get 1 spark every 2 weeks. It takes 10 weeks to get 5 crafted pieces, and assuming you only farmed aspects to get your crafted piece at 447, you’ll need to time at minimum 2 16 keys to ensure you have enough aspect crests to do to upgrade crafted gear to max level. And yes, embellishments do matter in season 2.
Raiding…10 crests per boss. 15 for wing bosses. Close to 100 crests for clearing the raid. Plus tier was more readily available in raid than in the m+ vault. So theres more incentive to run raid over keys for the 1st month.
All that said, we had limits on crests per week we could earn but that did increase each week. Very few people were maxing out all their gear right away.
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Personally I think crafted gear going up to 447 was a dumb idea and embellishments, free sockets for rings, and 444 ilvl was more than enough.
Not quite that simple I’m afraid. 16s are easier to get into but the gear drop from 16s require players to also run 11s.
I’m sorry what.
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sorry, but this is just nonsense, especially when you take crafted gear into consideration to get to 447.
Maybe my view is swayed because I’m in an active guild and rarely have problems finding people to run keys, but we were farming 20s early on, and m+ was by far the more lucrative avenue of gearing.
Yeah idk what they were talking about, it’s like an hour maybe two tops if our guild is messing around trying to kill each other with priest pulls and what not.
Well, to be fair, there are legitimate reasons raiders care how easy rewards come from m+.
You see, there are 3 types of raiders that make up our rosters: the progression raider, the best friend, and the loot wh0re.
The progression raider recognizes that gear is a means to an end, and the end is the progression race. Their endgame is finishing content, not obtaining bis. Their reward isn’t gear, it’s the progression raid spot.
The best friend just wants to play the game with friends,l. They don’t really care about loot much, and he isn’t super gung ho about progress, he’s just there for a good afternoon with the boys.
Player 3 is where our issue with m+ comes in. The loot wh0re is only raiding with you to get gear. If your guild doesnt get gear (doesn’t kill enough bosses) or stops doing farm content he wants gear from, he’ll probably leave or quit.
Well guess what… the ease of m+ content is making player type 3 stop raiding or move from mythic guilds to casual guilds. And those players make ip a good fifth of most of oir guilds… maybe up to half. In short, the reward imbalance between m+ and raiding is decimating raid rosters. That’s why we care about how easy the game is for m+ exclusive players.
they don’t, you can trade crests in for lower crests in Loamm.
Sorry it’s 431. Still requires wrym crests to get to 437 before it can use aspect crests to get to 441
Yeah I didn’t want to go there. It still requires a lot of keys to get to 441.
All they have to do is either reduce the lockout… increase the drop rates… The end
In my opinion, people should be progressing on harder difficulties… Rather than waiting around for a reset to try again.
Top performers be damned
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To put this in perspective… I sim for roughtly 125k. The dps difference between 447 gun and 444 gun is 550 dps…
We are worked up about this… why?
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This is the bulk of the players I encounter in retail. Most of the casual MMO players are playing Classic or other MMOs now.
The current development decided to chase this audience for some reason.
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It took 2-3 wyrms and 1 aspect to upgrade a M+ piece to 441. Aspect crests effectively only come from M+ because of the gulf in difficulty / nature of acquisition between M+ and Mythic raids.
Week 1: Potential to upgrade 5 slots to 441, craft a 447
Week 2: Potential to upgrade 5 more slots to 441, craft a 447, and get a vault slot
Week 3: Upgrade the last 3 slots to 441, with potential to have 4-5 aspect crests leftover to downgrade into wyrms if you wasted them upgrading 428 items anywhere along the line. And a vault but I’ll say 1/2 usable vaults is more likely.
Not to mention you could buy tier shoulders once you hit 2.5 which saved you another 2 wyrm crests.
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well it depends if you keep failing the key or not. A timed key gives you 12 fragments. So every 5 runs gives you 4 crest. That’s more than enough to upgrade a +17 loot to 441
They’re already trying this by making the dungeons ridiculously difficult compared to raids and even bringing back wildly unpopular ones like vortex pinnacle. All it will do is kill the game. You assume that giving only good gear progression to raiders will magically bring people back. It won’t. My free time has been decreasing as i get older i can’t game like a college kid. The game should be fun and i shouldn’t be shook down just because i’m not playing a particular game mode.
Even when i was raiding when i came back to legion, it was at a cost i couldn’t sustain. I was often up way too late as a result. Also raiding gears faster anyway. Killing a boss doesn’t take the same amount of time as a dungeon, it’s faster. So in general, if you’re in a guild that can clear, raiding beats m+ by far in terms of time spent. The only reason why M+ beats it imo is that it’s easier to do on your terms than raiding and a single session isn’t even close in terms of time commitment. Spending a full night raiding will net more gear than M+, especially if you solo q M+ because of bad groups.
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Wait… players that spent all of legion, bfa, sl and df complaining about “elistists” would rather smash 2 mechanic bosses that were farmable in quest greens 15 years ago than actually try?
I’m shocked.
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