The Cataclysm of Dark Iron Lore

Lore Story Forum
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Hello again Story Forum, I recently got exalted with the 7th Legion and did the questline to unlock my Dark Iron Dwarves (I know, I’m way behind). Though the experience brought me here to ask “what the hell is going on?”

First and foremost:

Wasn’t the point of killing Ragnaros in his Elemental Plane that he could never come back? It was previously established that it had the same rule-set as killing demons in the Twisting Nether or on planets saturated in Fel energy. That killing them there is their final death.

So why is there a cult revolving around what is supposed to be impossible?

Secondly,

Where is Smolderon?
And don’t give me that “oh well Anvil-Thane Thurgaden asked the same thing” because we didn’t get a even halfway decent answer. All we got was “all in due time.” Which gleans nothing to the situation, even if we don’t know where he is. What happened to make him absent? How did it happen? You can’t just establish that something major has happened with zero context.
There wasn’t even an effort made to show signs of a struggle or a coupe in the Firelands. Smolderon was the established Firelord after winning the Civil War so all of the Firelands should be at his disposable and beckoning call.

So, how did this rag-tag (no pun intended) group of zealots somehow defeat him and make him go away or capture him or whatever it is you’re trying to sell me.

Final question,

Where are the Avengers of Hyjal?
I was wondering this in Legion as well but I’m throwing this out there again. Their primary goal was to defeat Ragnaros which they did, but to those who did the quest-chain should know that they were aware that a new Firelord would take Ragnaros’ place after his downfall. And they stated their intention was to watch over the Firelands and be ready should anything go wrong again. Meaning they would be leaving behind a Constant Vigil.

They would’ve been there during the Civil War, and they would have certainly done something about some crazy Dwarves trying to dethrone Smolderon who was the chosen ruler by the Earthen Ring.

Can anyone shed some light on this? Or force a blue to clarify? I’m running into too many inconsistencies this expansion and it’s starting to bug me.

Bonus Question I just remembered!

WHY does High Justice Grimstone or any of these cultist believe Moira is a weak leader? (Which is the established pretense for why they are doing this).
She has done nothing to prove that she is a weak leader, in fact all of her actions point her to being a strong and competent one.

  1. She nearly seized control of Ironforge in Cataclysm, if it weren’t for King Varian’s intervention there would be no Council and instead she would be Queen of Ironforge.
  2. She managed to put down the Frostmane threat caused by the Zandalari in Mists of Pandaria without the aid of the other clans.
  3. Bringing your kingdom into the Alliance opens routes for more trade, meaning the Dark Iron Kingdom must have grown in wealth and possibly expanded their technology (gnomes).
  4. She was one of the more prominent figures who assisted the Priests in Legion, and thus played a part in the Legion’s defeat.

There is nothing to back this assertion that she is a weak leader. And so using that as the pretense for a traitorous cult to grow beneath her is a weak plot point to start a storyline on.
A weak foundation will cause it to fall. And Smolderon will just be another Elemental Lord that a story was started for, and then eventually swept under the rug to pretend like nothing ever happened.

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About Ragnaros - I seem to recall Hamuul or Cenarius saying that his power could never truly be destroyed. Also, the legendary staff quest mentioned something about his heart.

So, I would guess that if the Dark Irons got their hands on his heart, they could bring him back in the elemental plane of fire with some kind of sorcery.

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I remember that quote precisely, but it is actually referring to when he is outside of the Fire Elemental Plane. They say it at the end of the Hyjal questline after you defeat Ragnaros alongside Hamuul, Malfurion and Cenarius.
Which is exactly why you chase after him in the Firelands so you can fully destroy him.

As for the Legendary staff quest, the heart is mentioned. But it is for the sake of empowering Tarecgosa’s Rest.

I have taken the liberty to strengthen Tarecgosa’s bond with you, though she will require a more… permanent home.

I would have you venture one last time into the Plane of Fire and bring me the heart of Ragnaros.

When next we meet, I will be able to suitably thank you for all that you have done.

So unless they followed the same logic of how we resurrected Thunderaan, then Ragnaros’ essence/heart will remain as part of the staff.

HOWEVER, Thunderaan was killed outside of the Elemental Plane, which makes sense to why he could be resurrected from Thunderfury. Whereas Ragnaros was killed inside of the Elemental Plane, and therefore should be totally dead regardless of any magic heart shenanigans.

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Ahh, gotcha. Just more botched lore to add to the pile this expac :joy:

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It’s getting to me. I more often am questioning what is happening this expansion than accepting it because it either ignores previously stated facts, or just doesn’t follow a line of logic or reason.

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Narratively, I suppose the idea is to present the new vs the old in terms of Dark Iron society. You’ve got the old guard cult trying to restore Ragnaros to power over the Dark Irons and all that.

In terms of execution, I was like… “Ehhhhhh?” about it? I honestly didn’t care for it too much. And yeah, it had so many holes you’d think the Dark Irons had been driving a bunch of their cross-continental mole machines through it.

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If cultists want to believe they can bring dead elemental lords back from the dead, who are we to tell them no? Maybe there’s some made up exceptions that we don’t know about yet.

Why does anyone believe anyone is a bad leader? Does someone have to do something bad? It could be a difference in politics.

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I feel ya. I’m in the same boat.

The questing zones and their stories were magnificent but there are lots of things tied to the overarching story that are straight up bothering me.

I thought that I’d be splitting my time between retail and classic WoW but the way that the story has been falling apart is really pushing me towards focusing on just classic.

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Because she’s not representing what many hardliner Dark Irons think the Dark Irons should represent.

The Dark Irons had almost been in a constant state of cold war, if not outright conflict, with the Bronzebeard and Wildhammer for 250 years.

They don’t want to parley with the Bronzebeard and Wildhammer. They don’t want to work with them as equals. They don’t like that Moira is grooming a hybrid to rule their clan.

These hardlienrs have spent their whole life hating the Bronzebeard, they don’t want to make peace with them. That’s why they see Moira as weak, they see her as disgracing the Dark Irons by making peace instead of fighting the enemy they’ve had all their life.

It’s not about feats, or about how powerful Moira herself is. It’s about culture and history. they see her as weak because they see her seeking peaceful reunification as the wrong thing to do.

These Dark Irons don’t want to make friends with the Alliance, open trade routes, and live along side the Bronzebeards and Wildhammer. They want to conquer them. So, in their eyes, Moira is weak for taking the peaceful route instead of the war one.

This attitude is prelevant throguhout history. You can’t tell each person what they should or should not consider what deeds make a leader strong or weak, that’s entirely up to each person.

To many Dark Irons, Ragnaros was an enslaver and damner of their race. To other Dark Irons, Ragnaros was their god and Moira leading the Dark Irons away from Ragnaros and war, and to the other clans and peace, makes her an ineffectual Dark Iron leader. They want Ragnaros, and they want war.

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We dont exactly know if what the believe in is true or not. For all we know they will end up creating an abomination of an elemental that is and is not Ragnaros.

They are being helped by N’zoth.

I would imagine there is only a skeleton crew left of druids left in the firelands. And its not like said Skeleton crew would go into the Firelord’s keep to check up on him everyday.

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This narrative was already presented in the Cataclysm though. There are pockets of questlines here and there showing that some Dark Irons hold on to the old ways, and some accept the new. Most prominently the ending of the Dun Morough Questline when the Dark Iron Ambassador tried to attack Ironforge with some of his followers.
The thing is it made sense then because Ragnaros was alive and the whole Hour of Twilight madness was going on. But now with Ragnaros perma-dead (or at least he is supposed to be) and Twilight’s Hammer cultists mostly snuffed out, this is very forced.

I’m fine with cultists believing it, but Anvil-Thane Thurgaden’s response means that non-cultists believe this is a possibility as well. And of course you can make up an exception, but you should front-load that exposition.

Otherwise, when you establish “this is impossible” and then when you are acting like it’s possible without any form of exposition you have people like me asking “What the hell is going on?”

As for someone just having a different stance on politics that would be a better plot point. However it is very clearly stated that they believe she is “weak” which I countered with she has shown no weakness, there is no reason for you to believe it.
I 100% would have accepted them instead saying “Dark Iron forever! We want vengeance for Thaurissan!” or something secularist showing they just didn’t want to be apart of the Alliance.
But nope, “she weak” is all we get. Well hate to break it to ya, but that plot point is weaker.

I only quoted this part because my post is already long. But they were losing that Cold War and outright conflict for generation. And as you say, the Dark Iron want to rule, to conquer. They automatically gain claim to Ironforge as soon as the boy is old enough to rule. Throwing away a guaranteed succession for the sake of bloodshed is idiotic because in actuality, no one really wants war. They want a particular ending where your enemies are defeated and you rule or whatever it is. But no one wants war for war’s sake. And because their guaranteed ending of ruling Ironforge is coming along, it would be idiotic to start up an uprising and gamble what is assured.
Also they had never raised issue with Moira being Bronzebeard before, because their Sorcerer-Thane chose her, and obviously that would create a hybrid offspring. So it would be strange if suddenly now they’re like “wait a minute…we hate Bronzebeards how did we do nothing about Queen Moira for so long?”

That’s just a backdoor excuse for allowing a change. A lie is not good story telling. Misdirection is fantastic story telling, however just outright saying “this is not true” then coming back later and being like HAHA! But it was! just means you didn’t want to commit to the decision you made.

I really don’t like that people throw N’zoth in at every angle if we aren’t sure what’s going on. “Oh there is some lack of clarity? Must be N’zoth.”
There is, at no point in the Questline, any alluding to or mention of N’zoth. If they are, we don’t know that yet but you can’t say for a fact they are just yet.

I would agree with you there. But I think an overthrowing of the Firelord would make some form of big hurrah. You can’t just make him disappear and no one realize when there is a small group of druids who actual job is to monitor the on-goings of the Firelands.
If you could, then all those druids deserve to be…fired. (yes I said it).

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My best guess is that once the Earthen Ring helped Smolderon take power and stabilized the Firelands, the Arch Druids decided that they were no longer needed there and re-called them to the Dreamgrove to aid in the war effort against the Legion.

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A good guess honestly. And one I wouldn’t mind supporting, I just wish that was established in some way. Or at least the Avengers base could have been explored and seen as abandoned.
I am very much against filling in the story gaps that creators leave unless being ambiguous is the intention. In this case however it can be gleaned that the things I listed were forgotten rather than intentionally left out.

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I agree with the notion that there is a difference of opinion based on traditionalist Dark Irons and Moira.

While she married their king and is the mother of his child, she is not a Dark Iron and her son is a half breed.

A mingling of royalty of two different cultures often ends with violent deaths. It reminds me just a tiny bit of Cleopatra, Caesar, and Caesarion. Just a little.

I know Caesar and Cleo weren’t married, but Caesar was making his own rules, and most likely wanted his son to succeed him had they lived longer.

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But they were fine with her since his death in Vanilla. Ever since then she has been Queen Reagent, and only once did an up-cropping rise up during the Cataclysm but that was because of the Twilight’s Hammer and the Hour of Twilight.
It strikes me as random that they waited 10ish years to decide they don’t like her. They would’ve had an easier time overthrowing her before they fully joined the Alliance. Like instantly after Thaurissan’s death would’ve been a good time to do that.