The cat is officially out of the bag, its time to balance more specs

[Aurumai-grobbulus]

@Riger-arugal

@Aurumai-grobbulus

They fixed a class that was broken and functioning entirely unlike it’s original version in OG Wrath.

See, this view that Ret is a special and unique case and Blizzard need look no further I find a bit self serving and myopic.

That isn’t what I’m saying though. The point is, this buff to Retribution was NOT made just because it was weak. Otherwise, they’d buff Sub Rogues, Frost Mages, and Arms/Fury Warriors. The point is that in OG Wrath, Retribution was always a solid spec, and the way they work in Classic does not align with that.

@Riger-arugal

When compared against Fury the fall back is “but you scale like gods and will be doing great in ICC” all this while also claiming that having to wait until ICC to be any good is a problem for Ret.

That’s the “fall back”, because that is literally how Fury Warriors were designed to work. Every single era, they start off extremely weak but scale amazingly with better gear in later phases of the game.

This conversation about Retribution started because they haven’t been functioning the way they were originally designed to.

@Riger-arugal

It’s not Rets claim that I reject but rather the fairly flippant rejection of Fury’s claim - it doesn’t make sense to me why you think Fury doesn’t have a case while Ret does - when the arguments for both are very similar if not the same.

Personally, I’m all for any spec being fixed if it’s a brazen case of their experience in Classic being nothing like in OG Wrath. What I’m not agreeing to, is Blizzard suddenly buffing classes for the sole reason of being weak compared to their competition.

If that was the case, Retribution would still need about 1,400 DPS worth of buffs to be in the middle of the pack rather than being at the bottom still.

@Yama-yojamba

ets hate this idea because they didn’t actually want to only get slightly buffed so they weren’t at the bottom, they still complain the buff isn’t enough, they want to be doing better dps than everyone else

You completely misunderstand what people are asking for. Really, how much damage Retribution does relative to other specs doesn’t matter. It’s how much damage Retribution does relative to itself in OG Wrath that people wanted fixed.

Talking about where Retribution falls on the tier list of specs is kind of besides the point, but it’s still a good way to illustrate the problem. It’s much easier to say “Retribution used to be B - A tier DPS in OG Wrath and now they’re easily E-tier” (something that people who played other classes at the time would probably remember) than to try and explain the the various reworks, buff and nerfs through the patches leading up to 3.3.5.

I’d say there are basically two schools of thought among people who wanted to see Retribution buffed:

1. “I want to see Retribution buffed back up to its original strength.”
2. “I want to see Retribution become viable for raids, which is a fair ask since it used to be strong in OG Wrath.”

The people in school 1 will still be asking for buffs. The people in school 2 should be mostly satisfied now. I have literally never witnessed anyone who genuinely specifically asked for Retribution to be better than X number of specs. If you encounter those people, you should just ignore them, because they have the wrong idea.

@Woopee-mankrik

Aurumai won’t tell you how it’s functioning entirely unlike its original version, because they made that up.

You won’t back anything you say up with evidence that I can’t easily dismantle and actually prove that it supports reality, which is that Ret was much stronger in OG Wrath than we’ve seen it so far in Wrath Classic, even after this buff.

[Woopee-mankrik]

@Aurumai-grobbulus

It’s how much damage Retribution does relative to itself in OG Wrath that people wanted fixed.

Ret (and every other class for that matter) is doing more dps than in OG Wrath when played at a high level.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

The point is, this buff to Retribution was NOT made just because it was weak. Otherwise, they’d buff Sub Rogues, Frost Mages, and Arms/Fury Warriors. The point is that in OG Wrath, Retribution was always a solid spec, and the way they work in Classic does not align with that.

That’s not why ret was buffed either.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

(something that people who played other classes at the time would probably remember

Nobody cares what you think you remember when you can’t back it up with anything concrete.

How is ret functioning entirely differently again? You keep saying these things and you never elaborate because you have no clue what’s different. You’re just making it up.

[Aurumai-grobbulus]

@Woopee-mankrik

Ret (and every other class for that matter) is doing more dps than in OG Wrath when played at a high level.

I wouldn’t disagree that that’s generally true.

Do you have a source on this though? That could solve this argument in an instant. If you showed us Retribution DPS back then we’re know whether it was stronger or weaker.

@Woopee-mankrik

That’s not why ret was buffed either.

It is.

@Woopee-mankrik

Nobody cares what you think you remember when you can’t back it up with anything concrete.

See above. You’re backing nothing up either. The irony is palpable. Maybe don’t accuse people of not giving proof when it will just make you a hypocrite.

[Woopee-mankrik]

@Aurumai-grobbulus

It is.

That’s not what Blizzard said, but ok.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Maybe don’t accuse people of not giving proof when it will just make you a hypocrite.

I have provided proof that ret was in a bad spot for dps in 3.1. You’ve provided literally zero proof of anything in all these threads where you repeat the same claims.

I’ll ask you again: how is ret “functioning entirely unlike in original Wrath?”

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Do you have a source on this though? That could solve this argument in an instant. If you showed us Retribution DPS back then we’re know whether it was stronger or weaker.

The only source of any kind I can find for Ulduar dps is looking at recount in videos like the world first archive on Method’s site. Everyone was doing way less dps. Except on Hodir where 3 mages are doing 35k.

[Aurumai-grobbulus]

@Woopee-mankrik

That’s not what Blizzard said, but ok.

Why exactly is that relevant?

They also didn’t say that it was a buff, “just because”. So you bringing this up is absolutely meaningless.

Though really, they ended up buffing Retribution, in part, because this is something that many people have said about Retribution. If Blizzard disagreed with people even in the slightest about this, you’d think it’s something they would’ve said. Especially when they’ve addressed other situations like Fury Warriors, Frost Mages and Sub Rogues (as I pointed out earlier). Once again, you’re kinda just defeating your own point by pointing to evidence that’s consistent with what I’m saying.

@Woopee-mankrik

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Maybe don’t accuse people of not giving proof when it will just make you a hypocrite.

I have provided proof that ret was in a bad spot for dps in 3.1.

Define “bad spot”. Because you haven’t provided any proof, or even any evidence, that Retribution was as weak in OG Wrath as it has been in Classic. None whatsoever. In fact, the very “proof” you point to provides more evidence against what you’re saying than it does for it. I’d be happy to break that down for you again, if you want to post it again and be disproven a second time.

Edit: It wasn’t actually you who posted the archives that I was referring to, but the “proof” you posted was even more vague, and I easily dismantled that argument too.

@Woopee-mankrik

I’ll ask you again: how is ret “functioning entirely unlike in original Wrath?”

Retribution was a relatively strong spec in OG Wrath. It isn’t now. Even after the buff. It never stood shoulder to shoulder with the likes of “meme specs” like Frost Mage and Sub Rogue in OG Wrath.

Now is different from then. Far more different for Retribution than any other spec I’m aware of.

@Woopee-mankrik

The only source of any kind I can find for Ulduar dps is looking at recount in videos like the world first archive on Method’s site. Everyone was doing way less dps. Except on Hodir where 3 mages are doing 35k.

Like I said, I don’t disagree with you, generally speaking, that people are doing a lot more damage across the board these days. Of course they are.

My point though, is that all you have to do is link some kind of proof that Retribution was weak back then. And I’m positing that I don’t think you’ll be able to find anything that shows that. Because Retribution was a solid spec that topped meters every now and again.

[Woopee-mankrik]

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Define “bad spot”. Because you haven’t provided any proof, or even any evidence, that Retribution was as weak in OG Wrath as it has been in Classic. None whatsoever. In fact, the very “proof” you point to provides more evidence against what you’re saying than it does for it. I’d be happy to break that down for you again, if you want to post it again and be disproven a second time.

Their dps being “too low in PvE” somehow means they were strong lol

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Retribution was a relatively strong spec in OG Wrath. It isn’t now. Even after the buff. It never stood shoulder to shoulder with the likes of “meme specs” like Frost Mage and Sub Rogue in OG Wrath.

Now is different from then. Far more different for Retribution than any other spec I’m aware of.

But what’s different about it?

[Aurumai-grobbulus]

@Woopee-mankrik

Their dps being “too low in PvE” somehow means they were strong lol

And here’s the point you keep conveniently dodging: Retribution was not the only spec to be buffed. Every spec that received buffs would’ve been considered “weak”, or otherwise not doing as much damage as intended, which is specifically why the class balancing team buffed them.

What evidence do you have that Retribution was ever relatively weak? As in, bottom of the meters, not brought to raids?

@Woopee-mankrik

But what’s different about it?

OG Wrath	Wrath Classic
Strong	Weak

Look at row 2. Are both of those things the same?

[Woopee-mankrik]

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Retribution was not the only spec to be buffed

Yes, underperformers were buffed. That’s how the live game works. Ret was an underperformer in 3.1. I don’t understand how you even think this helps your argument.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Look at row 2. Are both of those things the same?

Why is ret weak when it was “strong” before? What’s different? You’re being deliberately obtuse.

[Turdpig-arugal]

100% Agreed. If blizzard wants to rebalance a finished game then they should follow that to its logical conclusion and buff other underperformers. They opened this can of worms now, I hope people keep pushing them to make these changes.

[Aurumai-grobbulus]

@Woopee-mankrik

Yes, underperformers were buffed. That’s how the live game works. Ret was an underperformer in 3.1. I don’t understand how you even think this helps your argument.

It’s possible for a spec to output less damage than intended, while still not being a meme spec. In the very archived post that you agreed with, Ghostcrawler specifically said that Ret Paladins don’t want to go back to the “minor leagues”. As in, “That’s not where they are now”.

I guess I should ask you what – precisely – you mean when you say “underperformers” in this context.

@Woopee-mankrik

Why is ret weak when it was “strong” before? What’s different?

I’m not going to explain every single buff, nerf and rework to Retribution from 3.0.0 to 3.3.5 to you. I don’t even know all of them myself. But at the end of the day, Retribution in 3.3.5 was balanced to do whatever amount of damage the class designers saw fit at the time, and one of the ways Retribution reached that ideal amount of output was by obtaining the T10 2-piece bonus.

There is absolutely, categorically, no reason why Retribution in Wrath Classic should’ve been built off of the state of the spec in 3.3.5 when a major aspect of their gameplay came from the very last tier in the expansion, unless there was some buff, rework or reversion.

@Woopee-mankrik

You’re being deliberately obtuse.

That’s rich. You’re the one who’s being deliberately obtuse.

This concept is extremely simple. OG Wrath Ret good. Wrath Classic Ret bad. All that was being asked for was for the gap between those two states to be minimized. Take your enormous gas cans elsewhere.

[Deathsbounty-area-52]

Buff fury warriors.