Dustwallow Marsh, Feralas, Stonetalon (which has a history of Night Elf and Tauren coexistence) Mulgore, Tanaris, Thousand Needles, Desolace…
But really, it doesn’t matter. The orcs chose Durotar not for lack of choice but as penance. But when the rubber met the road on that, they started just taking things that weren’t theirs.
And when they did, the Night Elves (and there were way more before the Horde committed Genocide in BFA) didn’t like it!
Southern Kalimdor. It even has dinosaurs to replicate that “kill or be killed” atmosphere from Draenor.
Or they can keep squatting in a desert canyon and eat stolen wood.
Kalimdor was uncharted back then. The Horde would’ve needed to sail around the entire continent to learn about things like Feralas or Un’Goro.
I’d also like to point out that Durotar actually wasn’t that bad of a choice at first glance.
Orgrimmar is situated between a river (clean, fresh water) and the ocean (fish and trade). It also had a forest and thriving ecosystem of its own and the super rich Ashenvale just across the river filled with wood to build with and game to hunt.
They didn’t learn until after they landed and started to settle in that Ashenvale was jealously guarded by giant amazonian warrior women on tigers. Then Daelin came along and burned down Durotar’s own forest, removing the only lumber the Horde had access to and crippling the local ecosystem so that food became scarce.
Orgrimmar is a pretty decent place to set up shop… On paper. Until you find out what exactly is in Ashenvale and until some madman comes by and burns your forest down.
Then you’re left with a barren land of death and misery with very little redeeming qualities.
That wasn’t Daelin. That was the Burning Blade clan who burned down Thunder Ridge’s forests, about three years AFTER the Battle for Mount Hyjal- which means there was still plenty of lumber after Daelin did his thing. Don’t pin that on him.
And that fresh, clean water you mentioned? The Horde let the Bilgewater Cartel in and they IMMEDIATELY poisoned it.
Do you have a citation for this? I’ve not heard that the Burning Blade burned down Durotar’s forest.
Either way, my point stands. When Thrall first landed on Kalimdor Durotar seemed like a livable location. It was harsh and living there wasn’t going to be easy, but it was doable.
Then they discovered much of the natural resources available were off-limits or they got destroyed. You really can’t blame Thrall for that one.
that is every war, how is this different? It is a mutual transaction
Ya, thats it, the horde just needs to self reflect more. that’ll make them hate you less.
Why? They don’t like you.
The Barrens? You can have the Barrens. Northern and Southern. One of the fewest reprieves I got in this expansion was that the Barrens Warfront was never actually a thing.
When the “rubber met the road,” orcs were faced with a choice of dying in a desert or harvesting nearby trees from a forest that as far as they knew, was uninhabited. It’s not as if the night elves made themselves known. At least until they started committing mass murder against these destitute refugees because their crazy moose-god-thing told them to, and refused to stop.
Your argument amounts to saying that the orcs should have just rolled over and died because not doing so offended the ego of some psychopathic freaks living in the woods, that the orcs didn’t know were there in the first place.
No, we’re talking about post-third war now. Here’s your quote saying exactly that;
The orcs knew, at that point, that the land was inhabited, and knew who exactly it was inhabited by. Don’t try to bounce back in the timeline and confuse the issue, I’m not going to let you. They just didn’t care.
It’s in Cycle of Hatred.
It really doesn’t though, because- sure, at the time, Thrall might have believed Durotar was more hospitable than it ended up being, but that is not the Night Elves’ fault, and they had way more options than to march into Ashenvale and start chopping down trees.
And those are “War Crimes”, Warcraft had an entire book dedicated to it.
A very poorly conceived and received book.
There are no such things as war crimes. Only things that your enemy did better now you mad.
Still canon though.
So, for the purposes of this discussion? Relevant.
War Crimes are only relevant to the extent that they can be enforced.
The key point is that the Alliance did not win the war.
The Alliance aided the horde in overthrowing their leader.
The alliance is in no position to take the horde to task from a military might stand point.
Furthermore, Anduin already addressed this, when he acknowledged that the alliance isn’t free of guilt either. What arthas did to the high elves. Lorthemar and Valeera I am sure have something to say about that.
or there is the fact that the orcs did destroy stormwind in the first war. Saurfang became the sacrificial host upon which all sins would be forgiven.
None of those things address what the modern faction- specifically, the Horde- has done, which is why I called for introspection on the Horde’s side, because we’ve played the “Blame it all on the Warchief” game before, and within two years it had happened again.
Okay 'cause you were talking about the whole “why they were living in Durotar” thing, which predates the third war by… however many days it takes to get from Durotar to Stonetalon, I guess?
Oh, look at the big nuts on revissa, “I’m not going to let you!” well consider me trembling! Your helmet’s on too tight man.
The core issue remains: The orcs needed resources and the elves refused to deal. No one is going to just roll over and die to assuage the ego of some religious psychopaths. And if said religious psychopaths are going to commit murder over some trees harvested from their CONTINENT-SPANNING FOREST KINGDOM, well then they kind of deserve the retaliation they get.
I didn’t say it was the night elves’ fault. I was only saying that Thrall wasn’t a complete idiot for setting up shop where he did. It seemed like a good place with the knowledge he had at the time.
You knew exactly what you were doing, and that hyper-aggressive response is kind of all the proof i need. Sorry you got caught.
So use any of the other options i listed to get lumber. I know you remember them. The options weren’t “Ashenvale or death.”, stop presenting it like it was, you know it’s not true.
No, that’s because your macho silliness is dumb. Take a deep breath.
Any of the other options you listed. Well okay let’s have a look there.
Dustwallow Marsh - Oh you mean the brackish dragon-infested swamp o’ death? Half-occupied by Theramore?
Feralas - Unknown at the time, exceedingly distant from Durotar, and oh yes, one of the Night elves’ Sacred No Touchy Places.
Stonetalon - Imagine hauling logging equipment through Ashenvale towards another one of the Night elves Ultra sacred No-Touchy Places.
Mulgore - Next to no noteworthy timber resources, but at least it’s not a wasteland, unlike
Tanaris - You’re kidding. Tanaris. You mean the great big desert that makes the rest of a mostly-desert continent look lush and hospitable?
Thousand Needles - See Tanaris, subtract some amount of sand for an equal volume of rocks.
Desolace - its name literally comes from the word for “desolation.” becuase it’s a totally devestated wasteland. And for some reason also one of the Night elves’ Ancient Sacred No Touchy places.
At least you didn’t try to wedge Silithus in there, I guess. Which is another of those places the Night Elves want to kill you for touching, anyway.
Ashenvale is right there. Like you can see it from Orgrimmar’s back door. it’s a five-minute walk. But sure. Let’s demand that desperate people in need of the means of existence cross an entire continent, to go to somewhere else where the Night elves will most likely STILL try to kill them, if they don’t die from ending up in a sprawling barren wasteland first.
Good plan.
or maybe the Night Elves could talk to their neighbors. but this would require Night Elves to not be psychotic religious zealots.
Ion did at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0WKnDcvSzE&t=39s :
I always find this meta discussion is usually countered exactly because of the Darkshore Warfront and the associated Horde questing and world quest showing that this meta balance no longer is applicable to how zones can be affected going forward.
That is an assumption that this thread’s purpose is to ask that this not be left as an assumption, and more importantly, not be left as an assumption that Blizzard will never actually address one way or another.
Tamanii is correct here. Tyrande never gave Azshara to the Horde:
We also saw in the pre-expansion Invasion events for Legion that the Night Elves were still holding land in Azshara and that the Talrendis Ancient had even grown back by then.
Revissa is correct here as well.
Thrall shook his head. “Several warriors who served with you have reported a talisman you carry in the shape of a sword afire—that is the symbol of the Burning Blade. According to Jaina—as well as an ancient wizard who has allied herself with the humans—all those who carry that symbol are in the thrall of a demon known as Zmodlor, who is attempting to foment discontent on Kalimdor and sunder our alliance. As ever, demons do nothing but use us and then destroy us.”
Indicating Davin with his weapon, Burx said, “These are the bastards who tried to destroy us! They enslaved us and humiliated us and denied us our heritage!”
His voice a calm contrast to Burx’s near hysteria, Thrall said, “Yes, some of them did—and they did so because of demons who drained our very souls and forced us to fight their war on the people of this world, a war that we eventually lost. But we have thrown off those shackles and risen to be as strong as ever. And the reason why, Burx, is because we are warriors. Because we are pure of spirit. Or, rather, most of us are. I cannot call pure one who consorts with foul creatures to cause orcs to violate their word.”
The orcs and trolls all looked at Burx with a mixture of surprise and revulsion. There were a few, Davin noticed, who seemed confused. One of the latter spoke up. “Is this true, Burx? You made a deal with a demon?”
“To wipe out the humans, I’d make a deal with a thousand demons! They gotta be destroyed!”
Re-read your posts. and keep telling me I’m the one trying to be macho. This is getting a little… weird. There’s no need to get this angry.
To get lumber. Knami. The options i listed to get lumber. You posted an answer to a completely different question you asked. Again, you’re either being super dishonest or not paying a lick of attention, which, again, would make your aggression super weird, since you clearly care.
Trade
Help from allies
Open negotiations with the Elves- or anyone- and strike a deal.
you pretty pointedly just listed a bunch of zones when asked, buddy. You can scroll up to check if you like.
But let’s take your shiny fresh new list and, oh hey, look at that. All of it depends on their neighbors - the Night Elves - being open to diplomacy.
Which they were not. Because, if you’ll remember, the Night Elves were still super-mad at the orcs for “killing” Cenarius. Which given that Cenarius is an unkillable immortal demigod who’s doing just fine, is kind of silly, but you know. religious psychopaths.