The Amani Trolls are the most justified race in game

Claim: The Amani trolls are right to want vengeance against the High elves and Alliance.

Point number one: the Alliance and Quel’dorei drove them out of their lands and committed brutal injustice against Zul’jin.

Point number two: The High elves were responsible for the Great Sundering, because they served Queen Azshara, when she was working with the burning legion and so therefore did not deserve a new land and definitely didn’t have the right to steal the Trolls land.

Point number three: The Alliance are evil hypocrites because they stole the Amani trolls land by conquest, but were opposed to the Orcish Horde conquering their land during the Second War.

Conclusion: Because the Alliance were wrong to steal the Amani trolls land and the Amani trolls were members of the Horde during the Second war, the Orcish Horde had every right to conquer Lordaeron and the rest of the Alliance.

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I will have to agree. This is the main reason I raged when I heard Zul’Jin was sentenced to Revendreth. But, now I just pretend Shadowlands didn’t happen.

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Zul’jin was sent to Revandreth?

This is the image of him there:

I think he’s found by doing some secret interaction.

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dang i’m joining Revendreth, I was previously Maldraxxi, but i’m swichting

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You score a 10 on convoluted rationalization.
'So your argument basically goes that no conqueror should object to being conquered themselves."

It doesn’t quite work that way.

The Orcs came to Azeroth after making a total toxic mess of Draenor. They used the bones of the draenei as paving material and their souls as fuel. You don’t get to spin a “pity the H order” story with those kinds of beginnings.

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This is an argument I often see, but it’s always missing critical context.

For starters, neither the Elves nor the Humans ‘drove the trolls out of their land’. When the Elves and nascent Humans (both at very different times with the humans arriving centuries before the Elves did) arrived in what would eventually become the Eastern Kingdoms, the Trolls controlled a lot of territory, but there were no clearly defined borders that the Humans at that time, or the Elves would have known about. Maps of that time period, if they even existed, would not have clearly marked boundary lines showing what land was Troll land. They’d be reliant on border markings, if there were any, and they could easily be missed or misunderstood if they were spotted.

So they did not carve a path through the Trolls and take their land by force, they simply found empty land to settle on and did exactly that, they settled. For the humans this was actually not an issue, as aside from the occasional scout, they didn’t run into many Forest Trolls and the Forest Trolls mostly left them alone (there aren’t any notable records within the lore of humans fighting trolls before the Troll Wars). The Elves on the other hand had a much harder time as the Trolls would often attack them on sight. But still, despite the attacks the Elves did not ‘drive the trolls out of their land’ but instead found a place to settle, much like the humans had, and settled.

Unfortunately for the Elves, they happened to settle in an area of the forest that was the site of an ancient Troll city that the Amani considered to be sacred, and that’s what resulted in the constant fighting between the two races.

Fast forward to the Troll Wars and the first thing to note is that they were started by the Amani acting as the aggressors against the Elves. Mind you this was a good 4000 years after the initial conflicts between the Elves and the Trolls over where the Elves settled. The Elves were content, within those 4000 years, to leave the Trolls alone and only dealt with scouts and the occasional raiding party. Mostly due to the fact that the Elves erected runestones to protect their nation from the Burning Legion, which had the side effect of scaring the superstitious Trolls and kept them at bay. The Trolls simply were not brave enough to go near or past the runestones most of the time.

The Troll Wars was the Amani’s first attempt in thousands of years to wipe the Elves out and they failed, but importantly, neither Elves nor Humans wiped out troll villages or laid waste to Troll land (we have no records of that happening). All records of the Troll Wars show that it was a war between armies, not a war of genocide that wiped out villages of non-combatants. They ultimately lost the war at the foot of the Alterac Mountains, but even after the Troll armies were pursued and slain during their route, that’s where the conflict ended. Could the Humans and Elves, united as they were, moved on Zul’Aman and wiped it out? Yes, they could have. Did they? No. Zul’Aman was left untouched after the Troll Wars.

Fast forward to the Second War, and again we see a repeat of what happened during the Troll Wars. The Elves were again only dealing with the occasional scout or raiding party, nothing too serious. There was peace and security in Quel’thalas for the most part. This is confirmed in the Sylvanas book written by Christie Golden. But when the Amani allied with the Horde they began another war of aggression with the aim of wiping out the Elves, and just like the Troll Wars, the Trolls ultimately faltered (mainly because the Horde refused to commit to wiping out the Elves and shifted their attention over to Lordaeron).

As for Zul’jin, he committed severe acts of cruelty and torture against the Elves, so they repaid him in kind when they captured him during the Second War. That’s how he lost his eye. His arm was not actually taken by the Elves, but rather he cut it off himself to escape from the Elves during an Amani raid on the camp where he was being held.

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I mean, we just gonna ignore that Trolls tried to eat and or kill everybody who wasn’t a Troll? Heck, Trolls kill and eat EACH OTHER, they’re called cannibals for a reason… nobody likes Trolls, not even other Trolls!

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it was troll land

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Whether their vengeance is deserved or not, I feel like they ought to be spending their time and energy rebuilding Zul’Aman into something worthwhile before they march out of their ruins and huts again to wage yet another doomed war against their far more entrenched neighbors.

What’s even the plan? Burn Quel’thalas to the ground and then what? Go back home to the wreckage of their fallen empire’s capital for drinks? They can barely keep the different forest tribes from infighting long enough to launch these forays against the elves and humans, so how do they expect to reclaim their former empire when they can’t reliably cooperate on anything else and can’t be bothered to fix what they still have?

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Neither the Elves, nor the Humans knew that though.

We, the players, have the privilege of knowing that because we have lore books that have maps showing what land the Trolls controlled at certain times during history. But the nascent humans who would become the human race didn’t have them, neither did the Elves.

Without knowing they were on Troll land, there was no way for them to avoid direct confrontation, and while we have no recorded instances of massive battles between the humans and the Trolls, we know that the Trolls immediately attacked the Elves. No reasons were given, so the Elves had no idea what they had done wrong, they had no idea they were on Troll land, so they responded to aggression by defending themselves and then worked to find a region to settle in where they build their fledging civilization.

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They deserve so much better, my favourite trolls and they are constantly portrayed as villains simply for wanting to defend their home. They are the main reason my hatred for elves is so strong.

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It’s most likely due to trolls while already being a territorial bunch, did not have the best history with the night elves, the kaldorei empire took more than 50% of the amani’s landmass (same with other troll empires)), the trolls “recently” lost another huge chunk of land to the sundering, and the highborne would most likely not have changed to high elves yet either by the time they explored the amani lands so they would be quite recognizable, not to mention that it would have clearly been a group of settlers and not explorers. So the trolls would most likely not be too hyped about potentially having more land lost to them and decided to strike at their ancestral enemies. This also explains why they kinda left the humans alone but struck immediately at the elves.

Here is a map that showcases the border disputes between the kaldorei empire and the troll empires by the way.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/528895988648247319/1092688508612775958/Nelf_empire_vs_troll_empire.png

Also I would like to point out that way later, the high elvs did routinley go inside troll lands (they go beyond amani troll border marks) to patrol and kill trolls they encounter, as seen in the Sylvanas novel, they even made a necklace of troll ears.
Humans also had troll hunters in Stromgard. The humans/helves are not as peaceful as you say.
Then there’s the whole issue of how taking someone else’s land is always wrong, you can’t just claim ignorance when you find out, you have to return what’s stolen in all other instances.

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“They didn’t know” leads real fast to “well they found out”

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Point number one: the Alliance and Quel’dorei drove them out of their lands and committed brutal injustice against Zul’jin.

The Amani Trolls as the saying goes, f-ed around and found out. Shouldn’t have tried to genocide the High Elves. Also Zul’jin wasn’t around in the Troll Wars.

Point number two: The High elves were responsible for the Great Sundering, because they served Queen Azshara, when she was working with the burning legion and so therefore did not deserve a new land and definitely didn’t have the right to steal the Trolls land.

No, Azshara was the one responsible for the Great Sundering. Dath’remar and the Highborne that followed him joined the Kaldorei Resistance against Azshara and the Demons. What exactly were they going to do after they had unwittingly stumbled into Amani territory, let the trolls kill them all?

Point number three: The Alliance are evil hypocrites because they stole the Amani trolls land by conquest, but were opposed to the Orcish Horde conquering their land during the Second War.

The Old Horde’s actions and atrocities were worse than anything the Amani could have done or did. Much like what the Amani Empire was going to do to the High Elves if they had won the Troll Wars, the Old Horde were going to genocide/wipe off the map the Humans, and anyone else under the Alliance banner.

Conclusion: Because the Alliance were wrong to steal the Amani trolls land and the Amani trolls were members of the Horde during the Second war, the Orcish Horde had every right to conquer Lordaeron and the rest of the Alliance.

no

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The Amani have done nothing in canon bar tossing themselves into a metaphorical meatgrinder. Post-Troll Wars, the ballpark has always been in Silvermoon’s favor. They couldn’t even burn Quel’thalas to the ground after the Scourge wiped out the Elves.

The Amani being a serious threat to Quel’thalas will never be a thing again. Right now the Kingdom of Silvermoon alone could wipe Zul’aman off the map if Lor’themar ever wanted to. With the rest of the Horde, It wouldn’t even be a war, It’d just be a curbstomp in the Horde’s favor.

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According to what lore we have, the High Elves had already transformed from Night Elves to High Elves as we know them before they began fighting with the Amani Trolls.

But it’s doubtful that those High Elves would have known anything about the Forest Trolls given that the Amani Empire was extremely far from where the surviving Highborne (the ones who eventually became High Elves) lived. The rich nobles that lived in the major cities like Suramar and Zin-Azshari were likely oblivious to what was happening on the borderlands of the Kaldorei Empire.

As for the map, again we have the privilege of having access to those maps and knowing where the borders were and what would constitute a border dispute, but the Elves at that time would not have the same privilege for two significant reasons.

  1. If a map even existed of the entire Kaldorei Empire and the other empires that bordered it, they would have been destroyed during the Sundering when the majority of the Kaldorei Empire was blasted beneath the sea.
  2. Even if a map had survived, it would have been a map of a united Kalimdor, it would not have reflected the changes that the Sundering wrought on the world and there’d be no way of being able to look at that map and determine if they were in Troll territory or not.

Which is why I stated earlier that the only way they’d know if they were in Troll territory is if the Trolls used border markers. We don’t know if they did. Even if they did? It’s doubtful that the High Elves would have known what to look for or how to interpret them. A marking on a tree that identifies Amani land to a Troll may be completely missed by anyone who doesn’t understand what troll markings mean.

From what I’ve read of the Sylvanas book, patrols would scout beyond the borders but there was very little in the way of activity by the Amani until the Horde started encouraging them to launch raids on the High Elves.

That’s true, but that’s also post-second war Stromgarde. When I’m mentioning that the lore doesn’t reveal if the Humans and Trolls had much in the way of disputes I am talking pre-Arathor empire. The early lore we have regarding Humans and Trolls having a conflict takes place during the Troll Wars, after the Trolls had already started fighting the High Elves again.

And that’s more or less using the international laws that we’ve established over years, recognizing international borders, owned territories etc. Azeroth back then did not have laws of that nature, it’s honestly doubtful if they have laws of that nature now in the current day within the Warcraft Universe.

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Trolls want to rule the whole world. You can’t take a step without them throwing ten axes at your head and a role player calling you Columbus.

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They should retcon out the cannibalism bit cuz it’s just gratuitous colonial tropes

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I disagree, I think it makes the trolls cool.

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