It just feels like some people have this really weird aversion to admitting that, while yes the high elves and Kaldorei would go on to do many good things when it comes to defending azeroth, their arrogance has also nearly led to it’s downfall also. 
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The only cool Amani is Halazzi and his Lynx form. Other than that, nothing of worth gets lost with the Amani.
I’ll give you the fact that Halazzi is awesome 
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You don’t even play this game.
I should have been clearer about what I mean by “the good old days.” I do NOT place Warcraft 1-2 in that category. Instead, I was talking about WC3 through Wrath. I consider that to be the period when Warcraft had the most interesting storytelling, or at least, the storytelling that attracted me to the setting.
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Even then there were clear “good guys”. It was obvious people like Grom or Daelin would muck things up. While people like Jaina or Thrall who were avoiding conflict were portrayed in a more positive light.
Hell, Kael ending a bad guy? You could see that a mile away from his quotes. And anyone who didnt think Sylvanas would end up one of the most devisive villains in all of Warcraft’s history was not paying attention to Warcraft 3 and suprisingly Starcraft 2(kerrigan was just as devisive there)
Trolls claimed land that was empty at first since they build the first civilizations.
Yes, and I don’t have a problem with that, because the “good guys” and “bad guys” were individuals and maybe their followers, not entire factions. Both factions had both kinds of character.
I don’t see how this invalidates my point that the Amani-vs-Elf situation was set up to be complex, such that both sides could see themselves as right from their own point of view. And the players could see both sides and either choose which one they agreed with more, or just appreciate the fact that both parties had their reasons for their actions that made sense to them.
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Except it doesn’t. Warcraft is on a clear “anyone who is war mongering is a bad guy regardless of reason”. The Amani could have chosen to let bygone be bygones. They did not and because of it they ended up a bad guy of Warcraft. They could have rejoined the Horde and tried to work it out with the blood elves. They didn’t and even sacrificed some of their gods.
This is also the reason the Alliance is generally the “good guys” of warcraft. It doesnt start crud up, but it wont hesitate to finish it if push comes to shove.
I do not find it to be very complex.
Rarely do I side with the guys who choose violence as their first response.
Surprisingly, I have much more sympathy with Garrosh than I do Sylvanas too. But Garrosh’ position was, actually, complex.
The story, which was available for free too, ‘A Good War’ introduced the idea of a complex theme too - which was then crapped all over in BFA.
So, you sympathize with a violent orc supremacist who thought of every non orc as lesser being to be lorded over, vs the woman who was a SA allegory, was tormented by Arthas and manipulated by Zooval?
All I can say is….well you do you.
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Fighting people who are taking your land isn’t warmongering, or at least, it wasn’t presented that way at the time this storyline was written. And I’m not saying the Amani were presented as righteous or noble for doing that, but it was presented as a highly understandable reaction to the High Elf settlers, especially since there was already bad blood on both sides going back centuries.
That is waaaaay later than the founding of Quel’thalas. We’re mixing timelines here.
To be clear, I’m talking about the founding of Quel’thalas here. The High Elves (later Blood Elves) were expelled from their homeland because they wanted to preserve their way of life and be allowed to practice arcane magic—and by the way, let’s remember that back in this era of writing, arcane magic was not quite respectable. It was dangerous because using it would attract the attention of the Burning Legion, so the Night Elves weren’t simply being bigots for outlawing it. That alone makes the High Elves not quite “the good guys” for insisting on practicing arcane magic. But at the same time, they were standing up for their way of life, which was important to them. And when they were cut off from the protection of their former homeland, they were desperate to establish and defend themselves so that they could preserve their way of life.
To do that, the High Elves absolutely did waltz in and take the Amani’s land from them—sacred land, no less. And the Amani were understandably upset about that, and fought back. This was just the latest in a loooooong history of conflict going back to the Night Elf expansion under Azshara. Both sides already saw each other as enemies, and I’m sure both sides had “They started it” narratives firmly established.
Could the High Elves have tried to ally themselves with the Amani, under the idea that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”? Maybe, but would the Amani have accepted? They certainly would have had no reason to make the first move in this case. Neither side had any reason to trust the other, dating back long before the Sundering.
Also, I’m pretty sure the Amani are one of the cannibalistic tribes, which the elves would not just shrug and accept, and the Amani certainly wouldn’t abandon that practice just to make the elves happy.
Personally, I think that’s pretty darn complex.
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Cata Garrosh’s and BFA Sylvanas’ reasons were pretty much identical. Horde players didn’t mind Theramore, and they didn’t even mind Teldrassil. It’s just that Sylvanas’ was written in such an erratic manner, and despite this Afrasiabi had the gall to say “Well, duh, it all makes sense, I have written this character for so and so many years”. Garrosh was slightly more coherent, but remember that he used to be all about honor (–> Stonetalon scene) till he bombed civilians.
Honestly? Not that unreasonable in a story where the Blood Elves ended up allying with the Orcs. THE ORCS.
I minded both. A lot.
That was MILLENNIA later. And even if it could have gone that way, it is in no way implausible for the opposite to happen.
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I sympathise with someone who was put into a leadership position, during a time of great strife and blamed for multitudes of evils that he had no control over, and that, surprise surprise, the SA allegory SHOULD have control over.
This blame further lead to the consequence, that the people he was supposed to lead was driven closer and closer to famine because all possibilities of correcting this was denied him - because of SA allegory woman’s negligence.
Garrosh and the Catalysm war was far more complex and you realise, if you read the books, that Garrosh had very little choice at the end of the day. He certainly was misguided, and should never have been appointed as the main-man. But he was given bad cards to play with, without the experience to play properly with them.
They certainly did not just waltz in. They escaped from Lordaeron which had a shadowy power that the elves were sensitive to so it drove many of them mad. They went through cold mountains where they only just barely survived thanks to the grace of the then very primitive human tribes (Whom the elves surprisingly did not just slaughter outright for more ressources) they continued onwards and STUMBLED upon the amani forest only to be attacked relentlessly from the get go.
Nah, there is nothing complex here.
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Might be, but I’ve lost count of the times I heard “Garrosh did nothing wrong”, and everyone nods in agreement.
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Garrosh was a horrible leader that nobody should have that much sympathy for. Everything he did, he did WILLINGLY. He was’t corrupt or manipulated, he was just flat a racist orc supremacist
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I did not mind Theramore.
It was made a military target by Jaina.
Teldrassil, however, I disliked and when Blizzard confirmed my fears that Sylvanas started the fires was when I got fed up with the story. It made no sense for every other Horde race to follow her from then and there. Up until that moment, my curiousity and interest in the story was what drove me to buy every expansion.
After that I was done. I have not bought Shadowlands, and I am not really interested in Dragonflight. I’ll get to finishing BFA at some point, and I’ll be done… sadly I play a lot of Guild Wars 2 and FFXIV on the side, so it takes time.
Yes, lots of people like to say that. Some because “my team no matter what,” some because they think Garrosh was actually competently written (at least compared to Garrosh 2.0), and some because they’re trolling.
Not everyone. I think a lot of people have just given up on engaging with people who hold this position.
Everything you’ve described just makes the High Elves more sympathetic, but it doesn’t negate the fact that they took the Amani’s land. It makes the whole thing more complex, not less!
No.
They settled on a land that was allegedly empty and unclaimed.
If your attackers refuses to communicate you will not learn otherwise… and once you do learn your attackers have managed to create enough animosity for you to not really care anymore, not that the attackers cared in the first place - they were set on total genocide.
There is nothing complex about that story. The Amani are ruthless, genocidal monsters, plain and simple.