The high elves actually did expand their borders a bit south if you compare both maps. You’re right that the humans were the ones that made the largest gains as of the Troll Wars, but the human armies didn’t accomplish all that on their own. The Amani were defeated by an alliance of humans and elves.
Either way, I think assuming the stance that the Amani civilians were not harmed on the basis of a lack of direct confirmation, even though we see plainly that the Amani were massively displaced and are currently living in a ruined city, is in its own way a bias way of interpreting the data. There isn’t really a “neutral” way to view it. But I will say that if we apply Occam’s Razor the path with fewest assumptions, to my mind, says that the violent elf-supremacists who conquered troll lands did not especially care about whether or not civilians died, if they even acknowledged such a thing as “troll civilians” in the first place.
And given Chronicles says the high elves killed every troll that crossed their path on sight I don’t see much reason to give them the benefit of doubt either.
It’s fine cause it needs to be said and brings things back to reality. It’s better than most of the nerdy lore detail argument thread number five million.
Took another look at it. High elves did move, as you said, “a bit south” after the wars. But…if we’re looking at the same maps? That wasn’t immediately after the wars. That was about 3,000 years after the wars. Those gains are not nearly significant enough for me to agree this was any kind of campaign of expansionism.
Also, apparently, King Terenas Menethil was the one who worked with high elves to formally establish the borders between Quel’thalas and Lordaeron. Which matters if we’re talking about borders being moved.
And you’re absolutely right. Humans and high elves took part in the Troll Wars. High elves would have lost without the assistance of humans. But nothing I’m looking at suggests high elves had any interest in expanding their borders.
To clarify, there is a difference between civilian casualties in a war (especially one fought not just on battlefields), and a campaign of explicitly targeting civilians. Do I think Amani civilians were killed during the war, and the previous expansion? Yes. There’s no way around that.
I disagree with this assertion, though, that seems to be arising. That high elves were going out of their way to locate and exterminate civilian non-combatants. That’s one of those heavy accusations that you would need a good amount of backing to make. And if you start saying things like “violent elf-supremacists”, and talk about not giving elves the benefit of a doubt, that kind of forces me to take any claim with even more skepticism than usual.
Anytime there’s been something in game that dealt with civilians being killed, it usually ends up being addressed somewhere. I haven’t seen that, though, so that’s one of a few reasons that I’m going to remain a bit skeptical on that.
But Occam’s Razor. Simplest explanation is usually the best one. Okay. I’m looking at the maps. I’m looking at the history. I’m going to make a decision based off of that. Here’s what I came to.
Looking at the maps, there’s no significant expansion of high elf lands.
Looking at the map, there is a significant expansion of human territories.
Looking at the history, the high elves had been driven near extinction by the troll onslaught.
Looking at the history, the humans of Arathi were literally in the process of building an empire.
Looking at the people, King Thoradin of Strom had been concerned about the Amani empire, as his people had also had frequent conflicts with the trolls.
Looking at (high) elf culture, they were by most accounts reclusive and kept to themselves. This is a theme repeated during the Second War, and one that played a not insignificant factor in the fall of Quel’thalas during the Third.
Looking at the history with the War of the Ancients, high elves were extremely aware of the consequences of using magic, going so far as to construct runestones to hide their own magic usage (initially, they didn’t even use their magic when they were being attacked by the first of the Amani armies during the establishment of Quel’thalas). Despite this, the situation was dire enough that they were willing to teach humans magic.
Looking at the reports, the losses were considered heavy for the high elves, relatively light for the humans, and massive for the Amani.
So. What I ended up concluding (without one additional point) is that the most likely course of events? This.
After the Troll Wars, the high elves retreated back to their city to heal. The fledgling human empire, no longer worried about the presence of the Amani empire, began a campaign of rapid expansion to the north, moving into territories that had been held by the Amani. In the process of doing so, they may have cleared out any remaining Amani settlements. If there was some kind of targeting of Amani civilians, it would most likely have occurred during this period.
To me, that seems far more likely than the wounded, weary elves going out of their way to try to track down forest trolls in the forest. In areas of the forest they weren’t familiar with, after they had just won a decisive victory.
But again, that one additional point?
Looking at the information, I haven’t come across anything mentioning the wholesale slaughter of Amani civilians, as I have seen with draenei, blood elves, and night elves.
I have no reason to believe that the Amani did not do what usually happens in this kind of situation, and just retreat back into the forests they knew better than anyone. Especially because that’s what happened before. That would be the safest thing for them to do. Jintha was killed, and the–
Wait. Wait wait wait.
Wait.
Question.
Why…why are we assuming that the Amani didn’t just do what happens with most empires when they shatter, and break up into smaller factions?
Because if all forest trolls are descended from the Amani, doesn’t that mean that all of those trolls were once part of the empire? The Shadowpine, the Revantusk, the Vilebranch, the Mossflayer…pretty much any troll seen in a forested area? The trolls in Stranglethorn, the trolls in the Hinterlands, the trolls in Arathi…aren’t those the sons and daughters of the Amani empire?
Because that’s usually what happens. Empire breaks, citizens form their own groups, people move on. That’s especially likely if other tribes or people had been absorbed into a larger force. That happened with the humans, right? The massive empire of Arathor became Stormwind, Lordaeron, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, etc.
Elves became Darnassus, Quel’thalas, Suramar, and the Telorgus Rift, I guess. Orcs became Shadowmoon, Warsong, Shattered Hand, etc. Amani became other forest troll tribes.
Yeah, okay. So, that’s my revised thing, with Occam Razor. After their empire was shattered after the war, the remaining Amani civlians and other survivors retreated deeper into the forests, where they became the different forest trolls that are encountered to this day.
I think Occam’s razor would imply Amani civilians of any kind are never brought up in the game because the trolls mostly exist to be a racist and unsympathetic obstacle to the protagonists of the game and portraying them as a people who include teachers, herdsmen, potters, farmers, bureaucrats, domestic workers, or anything other than bloodthirsty berserkers and heart-sacrificing priests makes writing the story of ‘and then the noble humans (that’s you, audience) and the pretty elves (that’s your fantasy, audience) defeated the remorseless army of subhuman savage monsters and took the land fair and square’ slightly less readily-palatable than the alternative, where they’re a murderous band of monsters who are only relevant when they’re threatening lands filled with carefully-characterized and sympathetic human and elven (that’s you and your fantasy, audience) civilians.
TL;DR: The easiest and most screwed-up way to write your fantasy protagonists as never committing war crimes is if you never write their opponents as being people, but rather unusually clever and nasty wildlife with weaponry.
I am assuming that this was a reference to an awkward interview answer that Blizzard gave when asked about what Tyrande was up to post 8.1. In the context of BfA they made a comment to the effect that “She had gotten her revenge” in 8.1.
Unfortunately, this continues to be brought up as a definitive statement regarding Blizzard’s position regarding Tyrande and the Night Elves, notwithstanding that there have been more recent interviews that might shed a slightly different light on things. For example, more recently, in an interview, Blizz said:
“Fans of the Night Elves have great points they brought up about some of those things, and the intention was to never make Tyrande’s choices feel weak or marginalized in any way,” says Danuser. “But by the same token, we needed the Warfront to be fictionally something that would be engaged in for a long time. We couldn’t resolve things as clean there, but the intent was always to have her story carry forward. This isn’t just a small visual change that’s happened to her. It’s something fundamental to her character, and we’ll explore that much more deeply in Shadowlands.”
Long story short, yes, but no. The Amani Empire was already made up of several tribes already, of which the Amani were the largest and most influential. After their loss they ended up splitting into their various tribes, but all wanted payback on the Elves for what had happened. This was seen with Zul’jin, who rallied all Forest Trolls to his cause, not just his own Amani. Even after their second defeat, the Revantusk speak of looking forward to his return. Even as separate tribes, they view themselves as part of the Amani Empire.
Those are the Gurubashi. Another empire sacked by the humans for defending their land.
But as to the maps, I’d ask you to look at them again. Look how much land the Amani still held during the Troll Wars. Now look after. That’s not just losing a war, that’s losing near everything. To believe the Amani were not systematically culled and routed from those areas is impossible, as recall this was an empire. Those two remaining areas would not logistically fit the needs of the tribe if vast swathes of civilians still lived. Even if every civilian survived the war, they certainly wouldn’t survive the aftermath due to not having resources top provide for them.
While the Elves may not have been the major force to conquer these areas, the humans most certainly were not innocent of civilian Troll blood with the amount of area they conquered, especially when led by a Trollbane dynasty.
If anything the current Night Elves after their genocide still have more than the Amani had after their loss.
So why weren’t Troll civilian casualties mentioned? Because they’re Trolls. The Amani are not supposed to be sympathetic in contrast to the ‘heroic’ Elves and Humans that fought them to secure a home against savages. Same with the Gurubashi’s loss to humans and same with the Drakkari Empire’s collapse to the efforts of the Scourge/Argent Crusade. This is normal Troll depiction in Warcraft.
I see this as the chain of events.
Elves are exhausted from the War, but manage to pick up some territory as the Trolls reel from the devastating loss and revert to the infighting they had prior to Jintha’s appointment. Either upended Troll settlements in the area or just moved in as the Trolls fled.
The humans, emboldened by the defeat of their enemy, push HARD into Troll lands. With no leader and potentially no Zandalari support, the disorganized Trolls are unable to mount a reliable counterattack and lose ground, villages, and lives along the way as their Empire crumbled until finally the Amani and Shadowpine are able to hold the line in their sacred forests near Zul’aman.
Meanwhile, the Vilebranch, Revantusk, and Witherbark are able to stop the offensive in the Hinterlands, with the Vilebranch coming out the strongest of the tribes. Jintha’alor is founded as the largest city in the area. The Revantusk try to distance themselves and mind their own business, while the Witherbark refuse to stop fighting and attempt to expand and claim a small patch of Arathi land to hold onto. Other tribes founded small villages as far out of the way as they could (Like the Mossflayer).
Zul’jin rises to power and calls on all Forest Trolls to finally take back what was theirs. All tribes answer the call.
Defeat again. The tribes go back their separate ways and await another chance, pursuing various goals in the meantime.
Where they basically said that killing 1 of Sylvanas’ Val’kyr was Tyrandes and the Night Elves’ revenge for Teldrassil. Later we even learned that Sylvanas can recreate those Val’kyr whenever she wants:
it even makes sense looking at it afterwards, because Tyrande has done absolutely nothing after 8.1 and is completely fine with the Horde in 8.3 because she got her revenge which makes her and the Night Elves even with the Horde now (not really, but according to the writers).
The Amani empire certainly lost everything. But there is no reason to believe that the remaining civilians did not just do what people usually do when empires are fractured, which is to break off and create their own tribes. Nor is there any reason to believe that they were culled like so much cattle without any kind of reference to that happening.
The humans…the human were the major force to conquer the former Amani empire. And not by a small margin. Quel’thalas, again, did not move. Lordaeron did.
…where are they? This is an actual question. There are refugees in Stormwind. Darkshore is currently under siege. Ashenvale is still under attack.
There are pockets…small night elf–
Wait. Are there? Where is a significant night elf population right now? I can tell you that there’s a significant Amani population in Zul’Aman, but…where are the night elves?
This…seems like a bit of begging the question. But, if we’re going to do this, we may as well do this.
The Scarlet Crusade is comprised of humans who underwent the absolute worst onslaughts of the Scourge.
The Sunfury are the blood elves who also comprised the largest swath of blood elves who dealt with destruction at the hands of the Scourge, then astonishing racism from humans.
The Dark Iron (in Blackrock Depths) are comprised of the Dark Iron Dwarves who lost a war and are trying to survive, something made difficult as they were at the forefront of the first Orcish invasion.
The leper gnomes in Gnomeregan are just trying to follow their leader in the wake of what they perceive to be a horrific political dispute
Etc.
Most people, though, don’t feel a huge amount of sympathy for the Scarlet Crusade, or the vrykul, or the Sunfury. This is largely because whatever sympathy you might feel for them kind of dissipates if they keep trying to kill you. And the Amani, in particular, keep trying to kill people. Alliance and Horde alike.
You can’t say that we don’t get into humanizing one set of villains if we don’t do that for the other villains. There’s a reason that Vol’jin didn’t side with the Amani the first time. Or the second time.
That’s a point that people keep omitting. Sure, the “heroic” Elves and humans fought against them. So did the orcs, the Tauren, other trolls…at some point, maybe we can consider that the problem may have been with the Amani.
I mean…you mentioned that without Jintha, they reverted back to infighting. This suggests that maybe they’re just aggressive.
I don’t agree with the assessment, though, that the elves were trying to pick up more territory. Because if that was their goal, they could have picked up considerably more. Remember, Arathor would have been moving up from fairly far south. It would have been a small matter for elves to just move south.
I suppose I meant, like, a home. A significant settlement. There’s a couple of strongholds in those areas, but, like a home. A place that’s just belongs to them.
Val’sharah and Hyjal could probably be solid choices for them to relocate, and there is a sizeable chunk of them in Val’sharah (including that snooty one who tells my I’m more demon than elf, while still asking for my help).
Seriously, though, thanks for answering the question.
I’m not saying you’re not allowed to criticize Blizzard, and I’m not necessarily telling you to quit. But I have to ask, between this view of trolls, races seen as being beyond saving, and so many other groups, what keeps you subscribed to the game?