The Aggrieved - Teldrassil & Beyond

Lore Story Forum
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I’m quite sure the people who mourn Sylvanas’ loss don’t mourn losing the “cartoonish supervillain” she was made in bfa. They mourn the missed possibility of her( and by extension, the Forsaken ) actually contributing something positive to the horde instead of turning out to be evil incarnate. It could have been a surprising and unexpected twist but sadly, Blizzard chose to take the obvious route.

And that is exactly the sort of “morally gray” the horde player never gets.
When I played the war campaign on my alliance toon, I was told all the time that I had to kill my enemies because they would otherwise do worse things to me, often accompanied by the note that they were “monsters” who deserved nothing better, so I wouldn’t have to feel bad about it.

As a horde player? Quite the opposite. Half the war campaign is about digging out corpses to raise them into undead against their will- and then discarding them when they’re no longer useful without a qualm.

Heck, even in the most heroic moment for me as a horde player ( and especially as a troll fan )- the successful rescue of an ( unrightfully ) imprisoned Zandalari princess followed by the awesome cinematic of our first arrival in Zandalar, the game doesn’t miss the opportunity to remind me that I’m actually the bad guy when Jaina tells me upon reaching the port : “You’ve slain many innocents to get this far.”
Like- no? I didn’t? I didn’t kill a single Stormwind citizen on my rescue mission. All the people we were fighting were trained troops trying to stop us from freeing a political prisoner who committed no other crime but wanting to save her homeland from imminent annihilation??

But I guess alliance units are “innocents” by default now.

I’m sorry, but that sounds like tarring all horde players with the same brush and we are not a hivemind.
As for me personally, I play horde because I love trolls. Hence, I have always been a horde main and will always be no matter how much they crap on the faction.
And also, because I am more inclined to the tribal- and underdog theme than to the classic knights in shiny armor fantasy.
Certainly not because I wanted to be the bad guy guy all along and revel in doing things as evil as possible.

And remember, this is a game with two playable factions. None of them should be forced into the villain role as obviously and irreversibly as bfa did with the horde.

From your lips to the loas’ ears. But honestly, I have serious doubts that it’s going to work.

Except it isn’t when you had absolutely no say in wether or not you wanted to commit that shameful act. Teldrassil was a horrible crime, no doubt. And I do feel for Night Elf players. But it is hard to feel sincere repentence for something I never wanted to do in the first place, but was forced to participate in nonetheless.

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I respect your argument.

But a couple of things.

I think…I think we might have different definitions of a few things. Which is fine, but I think that might be what’s causing an impasse.

Because I want to be clear on this, let me state for the record the following: I am not okay with making a gameplay experience difficult because of choices that people don’t make. I’m not okay in general for punishing people for things they have no control over, and I have no intention of being more okay with this in a leisure activity.

I do not like that me and my friend have - on more than one occasion - actively stopped playing Horde characters because the game is trying its damndest to make us the bad guy. When I mentioned the zombie pickpocket? The reason I stopped playing him? There was a quest where you have give a Scarlet Crusade prisoner some poisoned pumpkins, to see what happens.

That…that was some…like, what the hell was that?

There’s a quest chain in Ashenvale for the Alliance side, where you have to save the Forest Heart. Horde side? Corrupt the Forest Heart.

Still. I think that some of that is by design. I don’t know if you’ve encountered the players who would gleefully commit these acts while yelling out “For the Horde”, but I have.

I know, for example, Gamon used to always be dead.

I think…I think the Horde is also designed to appeal to people who want to have that ‘lok’tar o’gar’ outlook on a lot of things.

I think that’s something I’d like to see, too. But because events that actually happened already happened, I don’t think they can really move forward and rebuild unless they apologize on behalf of the Burning of Teldrassil. Otherwise, it’s…they’re just going to end up with the same problems.

Towards the “who has it worse” argument, I think I get where you’re coming from. But in fairness, you initially started asking about the Horde and Horde players in a thread about Night Elves. And specifically, in the context of what I was saying? A super-powered up Tyrande and Malfurion, along with their angered soldiers, should be able to push the Horde out of the forests they have lived in for millennia.

Which should be part of the give and take you mentioned. Teldrassil was taken. Push. Horde should have been pushed back. Push. This would have actually made the attack on Lordaeron a case of the Alliance making a first strike, which probably would have done a lot to make the story seem more…equitable?

Towards Garrosh? I do remember that. I will try to find the article, but it was in a bit where they were also discussing Varian as the ‘anti-Thrall’.

I will agree that there is narrative whiplash, but I’ll say it’s not just them not having a poor reading of what people want, but also what they think is cool.

I’ll argue though, that it’s less a matter of downplaying and minimizing as it is that the Horde simply has not lost as much. It’s…I mean, acknowledge that the Horde lost things, but do you acknowledge that the Alliance also lost things? Because I can’t speak for you, but reading what’s written, it sometimes sounds as if you don’t. I don’t know if that’s your intent. I mean no offense if it was not.

As for as the War Campaign bits, I think that was some dialogue that was said shortly after you accepted the quest. People tend to rush off to do things, because there’s a hurry to level. I like soaking things in, so when I saw they were chatting, I stuck around.

But, people tend to see what they’re ready to believe, so…there’s that.

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23

I’ve already stated my feelings on Teldrassil as a Horde player many times so I’ll make this brief and let Treebeard act out my exact reaction to the War of Thorns. Just replace “Saruman” with “Sylvanas”.

Basically this expansion has destroyed my class fantasy in ways so completely beyond the pale of what they’ve done before that Blizzard had to write Horde druids out of the story and never again reference that they exist for the rest of BfA.

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24

Lucky for me my Druid was a Darkspear just waiting to be a Zandalari the moment I could.

War Druids aplenty in BfA.

I was not a fan of the Horde Druidism clinging on the Night Elves like a child clinging to their mother’s dress.

I found the Darkspear Mage and Shaman who helped ignite the catapults and intensify the burning of Teldrassil expanded my Troll pride. It felt great to see the Trolls mete out some pain.

So as a Troll Druid during the burning, I let the racial fantasy meld and shape the class fantasy.

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The thing is, Darkspear druids are still members of the Cenarion Circle. They have been for years at this point.

And even if you ignore the Cenarion connection… I don’t see how any druid can be okay with what the Forsaken do to the land. Druids, no matter the cultural origin, are a class dedicated to the safeguarding and preservation of nature. What Sylvanas does in anathema to that.

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It’s a real pity that only then Darkspear mage was referenced. Ever since wotlk I don’t recall meeting any proper NPC for that class and Garrison followers hardly count.

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Was it ever fully determined if that mage and Shaman were Darkspear or Shatterspear?

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No.

Vol’jin’s words were “I speak for da Horde”. It’s a political thing. Varian - either as the King of Stormwind or the…whatever title they made up for leading the Alliance was addressing the Warchief, the political position akin to a king for the Horde. It didn’t matter who held the throne. Chair. Whatever Warchiefs sit in (spikes, I think).

But, yes. It’s boring that it’s always like this.

And yes, I would say it’s still bad for blood elves. This is a direct parallel to something that happened in their very, very recent past. As for the trolls, blood elves hate trolls. They have been at war with trolls for literally thousands of years.

I could have stated this better, and I apologize for that. I think the point I was trying to make was that there was a not insignificant portion of the Horde base that chose that side because of the aggressive themes. I did not mean to imply or state that that was the majority. I just meant to state that they were there.

WHY WON’T THEY STOP DOING THAT?

This is a fair point. And I didn’t mean players in general. I think that was in reference to a shame tally someone had been keeping. And overall, I meant less “you should feel bad” and more “Yes, Tyrande is going to be upset about that, and she’s probably going to bring it up if you’re a Horde player”. That’s…that’s just politics.

Would I feel the same way if something like that happened on the Alliance side? Yes. Largely because that would mean the Alliance actually did something.

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There are, I guess, three groups of Horde players.

The ones who despise the faction conflict. They want to work together with or without the alliance while being seen as unlikely heroes. BfA crapped on their fantasy.

Those who want to be like the X-men, a band of outcasts struggling against bigotry. They want the war but as heroes. BfA crapped on many of these fans.

Then we have the ones who like being evil or amoral monsters. They don’t care how they fight the alliance, or why, as long as they win. BfA crapped on some of these players.

This expansion was never going to end with all parties happy. Any form of catharsis for alliance fans will come at the cost of horde players. At least that’s how Blizzard sees it.

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I can see some truth in this.

It seems much of what the Horde lost, it lost of its own making, in very unsympathetic ways, or ways that gave the Alliance little joy. While the Alliance losses are almost entirely due to the Horde.

As a Horde fan, I can decry that we lost both Warfronts. A clear sign of Horde failure and utter uselessness and its destiny of being the jabroni in the piece. But what did we really lose? Darkshore and … Argagonafork? - Some new city made just for the Warfront?

The Alliance won. But its land they earlier lost, and a big name city they could have occupied in lore already, and no one would have opposed it. It isn’t taking from the Horde to give to the Alliance. Stromgarde was populated by various others, and just saying “the Alliance moved in” would have been enough.

Sometimes it feels like the Horde inflicts its worse losses unto itself. Garrosh killing Cairne with Grimtotem poison he was unaware of. The events precipitated by Kaelthas, Garrosh, Sylvanas. And further back, Guldan and Nerzhul.

Meanwhile the Alliance loses cities and populations directly to the Horde. The Alliance wins… almost nothing. They defeat the Horde consistently, but they usually just take their stuff/land back. There is little joy in just “getting your stuff back until it gets taken again next Patch.”

I am trying to boil it down, but I just make it more wordy. I am seeing Blizzard’s pattern as something like:

Horde Hurts Alliance.

Horde Hurts Horde.

Alliance Stops Horde. But stopping is not enough. They want to End the Horde.

But the Horde is still Hurt from itself. They hurt themselves enough.

And that is unsatisfying for all involved.

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That’s also a good point that frequently gets overlooked, and was one of the points Aviala also raised in her thread. What the hell kind of “victory” is the Alliance getting? They get to reclaim things that they already owned, usually severely damaged and at great loss to their people.

And there’s never any…any real sense that anything was done about it. Just a bunch of empty, stern words demanding “Don’t do anything like this again”, and everyone knowing full well it will happen again.

Losses are substantial. Victories are hollow.

I’m actually glad you gave voice to that. I know I’ve heard several Horde players, on varying threads lamenting the fact that the Alliance always seems to win the wars, but…it’s like…they’re not winning anything. They’re repelling attacks. It’s not a victory for me to stop someone from breaking into my house, y’know?

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I meant before that. When they didn’t even call themselves belves. They marched into troll territories to take it over, killed them and when they fought back they summoned literally Armageddon.
just saying that this breed is capable of great cruelty and selfish acts.
So I don’t think they’d that much care really- especially when we have a new edgelord in Zorash? Lorash? Forgot his name, but that guy was ridiculous. But ye he was out of his way to kill nelves because of some really backwards reasoning.

As for Vol’Jin. I still think my point stands, Vol’Jin lost responsibility over Horde. And Varian was the one who made this wov. Both are dead, who would carry this threat?

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No, I meant that, too. Troll Wars some 3,000 years ago. And for thousands of years before that. Elves and trolls have never gotten along.

I should clarify. I’m not trying to pretend that elves aren’t capable of violence. I mean in this specific situation, that should really resonate with anyone who was there when Quel’thalas fell: An undead creature committing genocide against elves. Especially watching her raise the dead to fight.

That’s…that’s a problem.

It’s because he said the he spoke for the Horde. If the Horde had dissolved with this death, sure. But if a government promises to make a payment, for example, and the head of the government dies? The responsibility doesn’t die with him.

Otherwise, any leader could make any kind of crazy promise, then just leave office.

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Sounds like RL to me tbh. The Government change and so does the politics.
Furthermore I just don’t really see who would pull off Varian’s threat. It more looked like massive ego show off than actually though-out option.
Mind you I’d find such a threat laughable if a Horde leader would say that to entirety of Alliance.

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Yeah. The past few US Presidents of both parties showed some respect to the Kurds, and they have been good allies. But the current administration is more willing to sell them out to Turkey, Russia, and Syria.

And claiming diplomatic immunity for that woman who killed that boy in Britain… causing our greatest ally to loathe us.

One president makes a deal and the other tears it up. Who could trust the US? I suppose fear and lack of options helps.

A change of leadership can have drastic and immediate impact with no concern for the words and oaths of previous leaders.

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Vanaelia,

Let me start out by saying that you seem (so far, at least) to be a reasonable person, and I apologize for how frayed everyone’s nerves are in this forum. The Horde posters who are still around after this long are all a bit snappish and defensive after a year and a half of threads telling us how we haven’t suffered yet and deserve to suffer more.

As the person who compiled that list, I’d like to speak a bit about its intent. It was intended to show how Blizzard were going out of their way to scold and shame the Horde PC for things they were requiring, or at the very least heavily encouraging, the character to do. This seems like a perverse way to treat half your customer base. It was also intended to put the list all in one place so that people could refer to it and see that it wasn’t our imagination–there actually was a pattern happening.

A few thoughts. First, as I mentioned above, that wasn’t really the point of the thread. Second, Blizzard seemed to be promising a faction war where we actually wouldn’t feel bad about stabbing Alliance–because it would all be in the context of a fair fight, not the slaughter of sad civilians. (I mean, Alliance players don’t feel bad for stabbing Horde characters, right? We foolishly thought we might get the same treatment.)

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I just have to point out that the Alliance doesn’t choose their leaders either. Anduin the perfect is even more a product of nepotism than any of the Horde’s warchiefs have been. The warchief system isn’t the problem here. Heck, it’s basically the same system China’s emperors used for milennia–the outgoing head of state hand-picks his/her successor. It worked no worse, and arguably better, than hereditary monarchy, where the previous king’s eldest son automatically became king.

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So this whole discussion stems from this post, correct?

But I would pose the same question to you when a point Vanaelia makes is:

And your response is:

To literally only address it with your own perspective as a Horde player, not even bringing up the existence of the Alliance perspective on receiving an apology in this thought experiment.

Quite simply, the Horde player doesn’t even have to see this apology take place. It could be entirely Alliance exclusive.

Your rebuttal might be to not trust Blizzard to not drag the Horde player through the mud in first person perspective, but if your concern is that Blizzard is going to treat the Horde like garbage regardless than it doesn’t really matter if the apology would happen or not if your expectation is that Blizzard is going to find some way to kick the Horde while it’s down any way even if it doesn’t apologize.

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Personally, I think there’s a tug-of-war happening among the devs. I can’t speculate on who holds which opinion, but I think there is a pro-WC2 “metal Horde” faction that is currently in control and has taken over from a pro-WC3 group. And they have created storylines that have attracted a certain subset of players who also like that same aesthetic.

It depends on what your metric for loss is. By mine, players on both sides have lost about equal amounts of things that made the game enjoyable for them. But as I said recently on another thread, no matter how often Horde players say that, it seems like Alliance players never believe us.

It would be completely out of character if she weren’t upset about it, and having that be a storyline going forward makes huge amounts of sense.

There is, however, no reason under the sun why the Horde PC should be forced to spend time with Tyrande and listen to her directing her anger at the PC personally. Which seems very likely to happen.

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See, now here’s the huge difference; the Alliance form of nepotism? It seemingly works very well.

Two kings of Stormwind inherited their throne because their dads sat on the chair before them. Both kings have faced horrific losses to the Horde. But in the end? Both kings ensured their enemies were defeated (yes, not as defeated as some Alliance players feel they should have been, and arguably not as defeated as the Horde deserved to be). Yes, they allied with the less-evil parts of the Horde to do it, but they still come out on the side that can closest be called the “winning side”.

Alliance nepotism has a pretty good success rate all told.

For Hordeside though? It currently sits at 50% of former warchiefs going full dark side, 25% dead in their first conflict with a truly powerful enemy (the Iron Horde was never powerful), and the other 25% keeps retiring, returning, sad because the elements don’t love him as much as they did before, reluctantly returning because his friend told him how the Horde really needs its true warchief back… Then stepping back and letting the least competent option take the lead.

And yes, Baine was the least competent option. I mean, Lorthemar is right there and we went with the guy who spent nearly the whole of the last year talking about how terrible everything Sylvy was doing was, but not taking a stand about it until one single extra zombie was too much. The whole war campaing ramped up, and he said “guys, this is evil” while standing beside Sylvannas. But oh no, one zombie brother?? BETRAYER!!

But Thrall knew Baine’s dad. So Baine gets the big chair. Thrall knew Lorthemar because Sylvannas introduced the blelves, so who cares about past leadership and military experience. Baine gave Thrall’s secret human girlfriend her zomnbified brother! +265 Warchief Power!!

I’ll take inherited monarchy from a line of successors proven to have level heads, pure nature and a willingness to work with others over the nepotism of “oh man, that was so badass what you just did. Wanna be warchief today?”

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Because it simply isn’t true. :slight_smile:
Especially since this mindset the core of the reason that Alliance can’t get anything positive for their story.