The Aggrieved - Teldrassil & Beyond

Might not have even been that deliberate on her part. The border conflicts could have been symptomatic of local kaldorei princes and lords seeking to expand their own holdings for reasons of prestige and/or political clout, instigating a response from the trolls.

Then the Zandalari went to Azshara and reached an accommodation of telling their respective peoples to both knock it off before things could escalate into a full-blown dedicated war between empires that the trolls probably couldn’t win and Azshara wasn’t particularly interested in pursuing anyway.

When it comes down to it, most of Azeroth’s mortal races - even the most aggressive and bloodthirsty ones - haven’t generally seemed very interested in conquering and ruling other races. The jungle trolls enslaving goblins was something of an anomaly in that regard, and the mogu are a rare exception, being the only major power in Azeroth’s history that was known to have subjugated and ruled over numerous other races outside their own.

Rather, when conflicts arise they tend to seek to either drive out their enemies or wipe them out. Conquering them and making them subjects rarely seems to be treated as an option.

All that said, the fact that the high elves basically managed to avoid conflict with the Amani up until they “crossed the mountains” (implying either Alterac or the Hinterlands, given those are the only mountain range-type areas in the northern EK recognized enough by lore to not just be zone-demarcating game mechanics) it seems like maybe after the Sundering ripped half their territory out from under them the troll empires’ populations might have generally fled east to seek protection from the ensuing chaos in and around the capital.

And since they’d just lost large chunks of populations to the bottom of the sea that had previously spent millennia growing to occupy their territories, the troll empires may have just not recovered yet to the point of actually reclaiming and resettling as far west as Tirisfal. After all, the high elves are described as having not actually encountered the trolls until they had crossed the mountains and begun to approach their goal (i.e. the peninsula where Quel’thalas would come to be. So at the very least they’d left Tirisfal behind, and since the Alterac Mountains are the only mountain range that’s been deemed important enough to name in the northern EK subcontinent, it’s not unreasonable to presume that may be where they crossed over before alerting the trolls to their approach. (Plus unlike the squared-off barrier mountains in-game, the Alterac Mountains are the only ones in that part of the world that are given a mountainous climate to go with their peaks., which fits with the horrendous weather the high elves contended with that killed a bunch of them.

The whole world reeled from the Sundering for a really long time, with the notable exception being the Gurubashi using Hakkar’s power to accelerate their recovery (and then cause their eventual implosion). Places like Tirisfal, Silverpine, Alterac and perhaps even Hillsbrad were likely only sparsely populated by the trolls, or the vrykul and humans would have had a much harder time of it when they landed there as what were effectively refugees.

Something to consider as far as the shifting geography of Zul’Aman is that it’s possible what we call by that name today may have just been the temple district of the original city. Like the equivalent of what Gundrak is to the whole of Zul’Drak. After all, when it comes to sheer territorial loss it comes across like the Amani and Gurubashi lost a lot more than the Drakkari, not only in territory taken by the night elves but then landmass literally dragged to the ocean bottom by the Sundering. Remember, like the kaldorei these empires had thousands of years to grow, meaning their capitals were likely pretty massively sprawling metropolises at their heights with gigantic populations. Similarly, what we consider Zul’Gurub now could be the same sort of thing, with the rest of the original city sprawl having been lost to the wilds or parsed out as ruins-dotted villages between the smaller warring tribes. Plus on top of losses to the Sundering, there’s that whole story in-game about a massive portion of Zul’Gurub’s cityscape being drowned by the seas during some conflict between the Gurubashi and the servants of Neptulon. Between all that and the Hakkari civil war, it’s hardly a wonder the Gurubashi have even fewer recognizable ruins left than the Amani.

Just overall though, it wouldn’t be surprising if many of the formerly troll-held lands that were fairly distant from the capitals - while technically theirs - still hadn’t been physically retaken, resettled and made defensible yet even by the time the vrykul and humans, then the high elves made landfall. The Sundering was insanely catastrophic and damaging to every civilization living on Azeroth at the time (except the pandaren 'cuz mist) and it took the world’s surviving nations a really long time to regain their footing and acclimate to the general environmental upheaval that followed. Arguably none of them really did. In 10,000 years one would expect a pretty insane population rebound, but neither the trolls nor the elves ever truly bounced back. In fact the notable exceptions of the Gurubashi and the night elves at least managing to rebuild new societies capable of sustainable growth were in no small part thanks to powerful immortal agencies overtly stepping in and lending a hand (albeit in a manner that proved ultimately self-destructive in the case of the Gurubashi.)

8 Likes

Going by the Mossflayer Tribe, I’d say it’s very likely that the Plaguelands were part of the Amani Empire.

5 Likes

That’s a good point. We do have this about them:

    The Mossflayer tribe split off from the Amani empire after the Troll Wars and decided to abandon that section of Lordaeron altogether. Even so, humanity continued to harry the forest trolls. The Mossflayer tribe had been driven out of much of its ancestral territory in Lordaeron by the time the Second War broke out.

Chronicle does mention that the Amani had been plagued by infighting that threatened to destroy the tribe from within. It wasn’t so much the Amani that didn’t have interest for 4,000 years, it was just that they couldn’t organize themselves, and rather, it was that the Zandalari didn’t have interest in the situation until 4,000 years after the High Elves had already established themselves, as it was the Zandalari that came to step in and organize the Amani for the Troll Wars.

I have discovered that this is a misrepresentation of what happened to the Amani, and in no way was the Human magic attack on the Amani the same as the burning of Teldrassil.

The Human magic attack is described on Page 131 of Chronicle: Volume I:

    The Amani now found themselves fighting a war on two fronts. Yet Jintha remained confident the trolls would emerge victorious. The elves’ decision to ally with the primitive humans reeked of desperation. The Arathi had a reputation as fierce warriors, but they lacked the magic powers and battle discipline of the elves. The crude humans were a minor nuisance–one that Jintha would quickly eradicate. Intent on destroying Arathor’s armies, he turned his warbands south to crush the humans. Once he had slaughtered them, Jintha would refocus his forces on Quel’Thalas and exterminate the elves for good.

    On Thoradin’s orders, the humans began a slow retreat back towards Alerac. Weeks of brutal and bloody fighting followed as the overconfident Amani chased Arathor’s armies to the mountains. As the humans moved south, the high elves emerged from Quel’Thalas and marched for Alterac as well. They constantly harried the northern flank of the Amani, slowly whittling down the trolls’ rear guard.

    Upon finally reaching Alterac Fortress, Thoradin was pleased to find that the Amani were still in pursuit. He readied his forces for the attack that he knew was soon to come. One morning, as a thick for enveloped the Alterac foothills, the Amani fell upon the human army. Although outnumbered, the Arathi fought back with unexpected tenacity. The battle raged on for days with neither side giving ground. Before long, the high elves arrived from the north and assailed the Amani on a second front.

    When the humans and elves were confident they had worn down the Amani ranks, they unleashed their secret weapon: the one hundred human magi. Throughout the recent days of fighting, Thoradin had kept them hidden within Alterac Fortress. Now, it was time to test their mettle in battle.

    Alongside the elven sorcerers, the human magi called upon their vast newfound powers. Instead of attacking individually, the magi did something unprecedented: they pooled their power and wove a single terrible spell. The Alterac Mountains heaved and trembled as torrents of fire lashed down from the blood-red sky. The energies engulfed the Amani ranks in a searing conflagration. These sorcerous flames burned loa and troll alike from the inside out.

    Among the first of the Amani to be consumed in the enchanted flames was Jintha. Without their leader, the surviving trolls broke rank and retreated north. The elves and humans hunted them down like game, slaughtering every Amani combatant they could find.

TL;DR:

The Human magic attack was done on a purely a military force of the Amani - no civilians - and a military force that had chased the Humans to the Alerac Mountains. Alterac Mountains which were Human lands, not Amani lands:

Even putting aside the debate on whether or not the Amani actually had any claims on Tirisfal Glades, even by this earliest map of Amani territory after the Sundering the Alerac Mountains were not part of their territory.

The Humans unleashed a spell on their own lands, not the Trolls’ lands, and the Humans unleashed this spell against a completely military enemy.

This is in no way comparable to the burning of the Night Elves’ civilians in their own home.

2 Likes

Genocie is genocide. Troll Wars ended in Amani extermination, their lands were taken and for years they were exterminated systematically. Their settlements destroyed so other races could inhabit, their holy places destroyed (by elves).
I really don’t know what to say anymore.

They fill all the criteria:
-They were exterminated on mass
-The remaining survivros were hunted down
-they lost Majority of territories
-they were forced to dwell in small remaining “Reserves” like current Native Americans.
-and even then they were constantly raided by both humans and elves for “population controll” - so that means any troll regardless of occupation and age to be put down becasue he might breed
-their holy places desecrated
-their settlements taken over and destroyed
-it successfully broke them as united faction, unable to recover for many centuries until Zul’Jin appeared
-and Zul’Jin was still villanized and made as a raid boss.

And lastly trolls aren’t kind of people you cant use split for military and civilian group as they’re all raised to be hunters and being capable of fighting.

That’s it. That is exactly what genocide is about, a motion set for years in constant eradication and take over. This is what happened with Amani.
They were Genocided, and not just with one event, but many years passing later.

With Nelves it was one event which ended right now. Nuking one city doesn’t have to mean that it was genocide. Just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn’t genocide, despite hitting massive ammount of civilian population becasue it wasn’t a plan of total extermination of natives. It would be if it would actually break the nation and the fight would continue to take over everything Japanese have in order to eradicate them completely.

Just because humans and elves faught in a war against combatants means nothing really if you take into bigger picture all these factors above and the consequences of these actions.
You should check for reference
-Native American extermination by “New” American colonialists.
-Armeniang genocie by Turks
-Polish genocide by Ukrainian Nationalists (this one is interesting because Ukrainins were mostly common civillians themselves and they were slaughtering their own family members becasue they were Polish).

So in a way I can agree that Teldrassil and Troll wars was different, it was much MUCH worse for trolls.

Edit: and the quote you provided only proves that humans were attacked because they joined elves in two wars front, it meant that humans were already pushing from south to get trolls in a clutch - and trolls were winning the war fairly with their army alone.

2 Likes

9 Likes

Same here for me. I find the whole 'knight in shining armor, ‘our hero!’ thing rather nauseating, and I can’t really find the appeal on playing Alliance.
However, I am fine with the 'save the Prince/Princess trope, I do enjoy Mario/Zelda games

I was playing a Nelf char for a few months, but this Expac has killed my thought of playing her again. (that, and the cringy RP backstory I made up for her, but that’s another story)

Also, I don’t find the Horde evil either, It’s just how Blizzard writes them. The races of the Horde are their own people trying to survive in a world that’s having near-constant wars, plagues and invasions

4 Likes

This is what I’m calling you out on. You tried to pass off that picture of the Human magic spell as an attack on the Amani homeland in the same way Teldrassil was, and it wasn’t.

The Humans also originally had no interest in the fighting between the Trolls and the High Elves and wanted to stay out of it, but it was Troll aggression that drove the Humans to fear them and how the High Elves sold the Humans into joining:

    Over the span of a few decades, troll incursions into human territories had become more pronounced and ruthless. Something was changing among the brutish Amani to the north. The Arathi knew that if humankind remained divided, it would stand little chance against a true war with its moss-skinned foes.

    King Thoradin named his new kingdom Arathor. He tasks his most gifted builders with constructing a mighty capital called Strom southeast of Tirisfal Glades. The semiarid terrain around the city acted as the ideal buffer zone between humanity and the Amani, prohibiting the trolls from launching their much feared forest ambushes. Thoradin also orders his people to build a great wall near the capital to further shield them from Amani incursions. Word of Strom’s might quickly spread among other disparate human tribes throughout the continent. Many flocked to the fortress for safety.

    Just as Thoradin had expected, Amani trolls soon began encroaching on outlying lands controlled by the humans.


    Thoradin and his generals agreed that they would not risk their own kind or send any aid to the reclusive high elves. For the time being, they kept the bulk of their forces behind Strom’s massive ramparts, confident they could withstand any foe.


    King Thoradin kept a careful watch over the intensifying war between the high elves and the trolls. Scouts returned to Strom with tales of smoke rising along the Quel’Thalas borders, of brutalized elven corpses littering the once-tranquil grottos of the northlands. Clearly, the trolls were winning, but Thoradin clung to his stubborn belief that intervening in the conflict would put his people at unnecessary risk.

    However, Thoradin’s opinion changed when a group of high elven ambassadors sent by King Anasterian Sunstrider suddenly arrived at Strom. With growing horror, Thoradin listened as the messengers related firsthand accounts of the Amani’s stark brutality and otherworldly demigods who fought by their side.

    The Amani threat was far greater than Thoradin or his advisors could have ever imagined. The high elves argued that without assistance from Arathor, the trolls would soon destroy Quel’Thalas. After that, the Amani would launch the full might of their blood-crazed warbands against Strom itself.

For all your concern about genocide, you intentionally look away from what the Humans feared the Amani would have done to them.

This point also has no merit for the Human magic attack at Alterac, when the Trolls had chased the Humans down for weeks, there were no Trolls there that had not been there to intentionally be combatants.

As for the Night Elves and Teldrassil:

Sylvanas intended for genocide against the Night Elves from the very beginning, as she herself spelled out in an internal monologue in A Good War:

    This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal. Losing their homes and their leaders would have ended the kaldorei as a nation, if not a people.
2 Likes

You have some serious struggle to understand what genocide is. Are you gonna also argue that Drust weren’t genocided at all because they attacked humans?

I layed out the subject very clearly, if you fail to grasp such a basics such as extermination of a nastion then really I have no idea what else to add.

1 Like

Curious. What point of mine are you responding to? At what point did I say the Amani didn’t have their land taken? Sounds like you’re responding to something I didn’t say so that you can avoid everything else that I did say.

Or is all you have that you made up a definition of genocide that you think doesn’t apply to the Night Elves? Whatever definition you are using (for example, I would use the UN’s definition of genocide, which would indeed apply to the Night Elves) it doesn’t really matter, as we don’t actually know what the people within the Warcraft setting define as genocide.

Weird attitude that Umbric has what, some sort of blood burden for being a Void Elf?

2 Likes

I never said that. You’re the one who is pulling some unrelated stuff to the main point I was making. That Amani were genocided.
You’re free to disagree about the comparision but to me the scenarios are almost identical.

I know. But thankfully more people are raising up and seeing through primitive narrative to justify extermination of other nations. And words cannot describe how gratefulI I am for rising Amani support.

I indeed disagree with the comparison entirely.

Which of my points was unrelated to what you were saying?

My point that they were in no way identical?

My point that the Human magic attack was not done on Amani land?

My point that your point about the lack of distinction between military or hunter Amani having no merit when the Amani had been chasing the Human army down for weeks before the magic attack?

Or my point that for all your stance against genocide you ignore that the Amani were probably intending to the same to the Humans when it was the Amani (and Highborne as well) who considered the Humans to be primitives.

So.

Here’s something I have to be very clear about.

I created the thread to discuss what happened at Teldrassil and beyond. I didn’t want to step on the toes of someone who had a thread that was speaking about something very specific. By design, this thread is meant to address things that are a bit more open-ended. Hence, the “beyond” thing.

However, I am going to have to formally state that I no longer what to see people discussing real world, actual genocides as analogues and references to things that are happening in game.

Discussing the concepts and the actual words are fine. If you want to talk about genocide, expansionism, racism, colonialism, things like that? Those are topics that you can by all means discuss in this thread, as relates to World of Warcraft. That’s fine, as those are themes brought up in the game.

But I don’t want to see people bringing up and listing actual events in real life human history as a means to bolster or deny any argument about these fantasy magical creatures in a world that doesn’t exist.

That’s not just callous, that’s actually offensive. If someone said something about how Genn should act after Liam’s death, and started bringing up how their friend or someone acted in real life after their own son’s death, we’d find that a bridge too far, yes?

Elves creating storms by wiggling their eyebrows or trolls raising the dead by tapping their tusks are not - and should not - be elevated to the status of real people. The stakes are not the same.

Actual, real human blood has been shed. When people die on Earth, they do not come back. Vanaelia has died…it looks like 75 times. And yet, I can play her right now. And if Blizzard decides tomorrow to shut down its servers so that I can never play her again, that’s not an actual, tangible loss.

I am taking the time to explain this because in the previous thread, it started with comparing what happened to the night elves to a specific military conflict. And that’s fine. But that’s not here.

If you - if anyone - wants to make a thread likening what’s happening in Azeroth to real world events, feel free to do so. But I’m not going to engage in any kind of conversation in this thread about that. And as the person who created the thread, I am telling you that I don’t want that here. That doesn’t belong in the Story forum.

For clarification, this is okay.

“I think that what happened to the blood elves/Amani trolls/night elves was genocide, if you use these criteria.”

This is not okay.

“I think what happened here is just like what happened to these real life people–”

Stop. For both the sake of decency, and the sake of argument: There are too many differences in real life and this fictitious video game world to draw any kinds of conclusions.

In sum: Don’t use real-life tragedy as props for fictional tragedy.

Signed,
The Person Who Created This Thread

1 Like

The very quote you used shown that Amani only turned their attention to humans because they joined elves. Otherwise they wouldn’t be bothered with them. Elves were the main target.

Humans joined to put Amani on 2 front war. Same Thermore did with the Horde. Horde had to counter attack the Theramore as they couldn’t allow to be stuck on 2 front war. With the difference that it was Garrosh who used the nuke and not the humans.

Amani were fighting fairly using their army and their tactics. The humans used nukes on them.

They obliberated them, and then they took over their territories and hunted them for generations.

Which was totally overdone if you ask me. Humans were clearly the biggest beneficients of ending Amani Empire.
Amani Empire who started the war with elves - not humans- to take back the land which was taken from them.

But the narrative frames them as the evil doers. The mean mean trolls started the war, the poor elves couldn’t defend themselves so they went for humans for help. And humans came to rescue ending the threat once and for all.

And by ending the threat - they did it together by genociding them.

Except even in the source you linked it has shown otherwise. The elves were the target for obvious reasons. They took troll lands, and trolls wanted them back.
Apparently for wanting your lands back which were taken by invaders makes you the bad guy.

3 Likes

I have no idea what you’re talking about, I didn’t use any specific anologue to real world events to point by point compare them because as you said there is no point in comparing them to fictional world. I used 3 examples in general manner for Amadis to review it and see there are many ways to carry genocide issue.

I only replied to you that I didn’t use “mine definition” but the definition commonly used.

But if you want to end this whole subject, it’s fine by me.

And here you are intentionally ignoring that we already covered that the Amani were attacking the Humans already even before they attacked the High Elves again back just a few posts ago: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/the-aggrieved-teldrassil-beyond/451387/188

And here you are ignoring that the Amani were already coming to take the Human’s lands in the same post above. Land that was never the Amani’s.

Only in your tunnel vision posts where you ignore the other passages I also cited from the same source.

As to the first one: Irrelevant because Amani never accepted the borders as shown on this map. Neither Arathor nor Quel’Thalas. Rokhan even says so in the Arathi Warfront. “This was troll land once.” It is obviously a known fact.
It was Amani land before Elves and humans came and took it from them.

As for the second point, the Amani did not “chase down” a retreating army, did they? They were purposefully lured to Alterac where the magi lay in wait to rain fire on them and burn them all alive. It wasn’t a “desperate last stand” on human side, it had been the plan all along.

Key word here being “probably”. The humans had valid reason to fear that the Amani, once they would have defeated the high Elves, would come for them as well, I don’t deny that. It is, however, not a certainty.
After all, humanity had the chance to develop from primitive hunter-gatherer tribes to an empire without the Amani trying to wipe them all out.

It was only when they expanded their territories that they attacked them more forcefully, and even then, the humans sure retaliated in kind. Like Igneaus and his men who are said to have “stalked way beyond Arathor’s borders and kill every troll they found skulking in the Woodlands.”

Is it possible that the Amani would have tried to reconquer Arathor when they had defeated the High Elves? Sure. But we have only the Elves’ word on that. The Amani’s main concern was Quel’Thalas. And it is just as likely that they would have left the humans alone after reclaiming it, provided they stopped going further into their lands.

They were not identical, no. Teldrassil was a civilian target, the Amani who were burnt alive, were an army.

But at the end of the day, the Amani went from a huge empire to one ruined city and a tiny streak of land around it. Plus the survivors who now live in Dazar’alor. If that’s not genocide, I don’t know what is.

7 Likes

Or just war boasting or is just incorrect.

“On Thoradin’s orders, the humans began a slow retreat back toward Alterac. Weeks of brutal and bloody fighting followed as the overconfident Amani chased Arathor’s armies to the mountains.”
It was the plan, but they still, word for word, chased their retreating army.

2 Likes

I am not ignoring the posts, however border skimrishes were pretty common even among the trolls.The fact was that if Trolls were as blood thirsty as some claim them to be then human would’ve been wiped out the moment they started to grow to bigger numbers. And none of the text you quoted, especially about Jintha who was the main general back then indicated that they - as united Army - actually had in plans assaulting humans. It might’ve been or might’ve not. You yourself said that it was a “probability”.

It was as vague reasoning as Sylvanas had when tasking Saurfang to prepare assault on nelves : “because Alliance is arming up, they have leaders who are pro war, that Orgrimmar is fileld with spies and they’re sending army to Silithus already.”

And well Velratha already covered what I wanted to day, and much better than I’d do.

1 Like