The absolute state of PvP

[Frosto-faerlina]

@Axkivo-rattlegore

I am wondering why people are so vehemently against quality of life changes that will allow us to play the game we want.

This is perhaps for the exact reasons someone would play a Classic variant over Retail. QoL changes award immediate gratification, and not long-term gratification. Which also lead towards more independence of individuals, and more of a single-player-centric playstyle, which is a much different sort of feel to that of a community-centric playstyle.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

So can we please all drop this crap of “not in the spirit of TBC”, because you are clearly arguing in bad faith.

This seems (to me) to be a comment out of left-field. I’m also not sure that you’ve clearly stated what you’re trying to say. Why would “not in the spirit of TBC” be arguing in bad faith? (Not that I’ve ever made this argument, as whatever “the spirit of ” means needs to be defined clearly for us to be able to determine whether something is or isn’t).

@Axkivo-rattlegore

The pre-patch forced players to choose between leveling an alt and grinding honor.

It also forced players to choose whether to play WoW Classic or TBC Classic (or to pay a fee to have a character cloned to the other).

@Axkivo-rattlegore

the point still stands that this is NOT TBC-like.

Ah. Yeah, for sure!

@Axkivo-rattlegore

the level boost facilitated the transfer of a large number of alliance players to horde, as well as brought in a lot of new players which overwhelmingly went horde (I have no data other than queue times to support these claims).

Meh… I don’t know that your claims are accurate, but I also would not dispute this; except to say that it also provided exactly the same for vehicle for Horde to go Alliance, and you can’t look at history and suggest that people had no idea there would be BG queues for Horde.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/search?expanded=true&q=before%3A2021-05-31%20Horde%20BG%20queues

@Axkivo-rattlegore

my time spent grinding to 70 is valuable

No it isn’t. It’s completely valueless. You literally paid to do it, and didn’t earn anything for it, unless you were violating the EULA.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

Either implement faction change or merc mode

What? This also seems like a comment out of left-field. “I want Retail, but I’m playing Classic. Make Classic more Retail like!” doesn’t seem like a compelling argument, imo…

@Axkivo-rattlegore

You cannot sit here with a level 58 boost implemented in the game and tell us “faction changes weren’t in TBC” is the reason I cannot reroll as a Human with all of my current progression.

I can. I could also tell you other things. However, you very much can reroll as a human. You just can’t have all of your current progression if you do so. Not like you couldn’t have done so much, much earlier though if you cared about BG queue times.

[quote=“Axkivo-rattlegore, post:1, topic:1002528”]

@Axkivo-rattlegore

Players want a distinct gearing advantage. As it currently stands, any casual player that wishes to PvP on horde are left to a handful of options. From the most dedicated to the least they will:

1. Run premades from the time they get home from work to the time they have to sleep. Assuming they can get one piece a week, they’ll be able to get half their set from bgs and half from:
2. Arena in PvE gear and whatever pieces you scraped up from pre-patch and bg farming. We’ll delve deeper into the math of this later on.
3. Don’t PvP
4. Reroll

This is an interesting point. Because, if the changes they have made to Arenas and Arena gearing weren’t applied then this would be different. So perhaps advocate to reverse the changes here.

Allow for players to queue for ranked arenas, lose 10 games and still get gear, just like they did in the original iteration of TBC.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

Most players can’t even afford the respec cost to PvP.

I don’t think this is true, but maybe it is. I doubt it would be true if you qualify the statement with, “Most active raiders…”

---

@Axkivo-rattlegore

Dual spec at the trainer allows more players to enjoy PvP content, without having a large effect on PvE.

Not true at all. We have no idea how large of an impact Dual Spec will have on TBC Classic PVE, except for the historic effects that Dual Spec had when it was a thing in Retail.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

Please give me a reason this is bad other than “not TBC-like”, because we know you are arguing in bad faith.

The only thing that shows someone is arguing in bad faith, imo, is if they continue to say things like, “If you disagree with what I’m asserting, then you are arguing in bad faith.”

---

Here’s a link to some of my opinions on dual spec:

@Frosto-faerlina

Reducing respec fees solves more problems than dual spec would.

However, please do note that:

@Elorael-remulos

http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/32183833.htm

From Nethaera in 2006:

We would like to continue to support the idea that respecs should be very carefully thought out strategic decisions.

which very clearly indicates that dual spec is against the indented design decisions for TBC (original).

@Axkivo-rattlegore

This method of getting points was literally removed from the game. How are people saying this is “TBC-like”?

Right! This is a great point, imo.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

arena points are currently designed in such a way that the rich get richer.

This has always been the way, and is in most things… The Matthew Effect is not dissimilar to this.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

The Poopers like you

I like how you put us above you in your number crunching! Humble, and good taste

@Axkivo-rattlegore

As more lower rated players start to realize the gear disadvantage (or perceived disadvantage), they will lose incentive to participate in arenas.

There is advantage to spending more time playing.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

The current system is just absolutely busted, and it’s a real shame that people are defending it. A lot of players just want an equal footing, while the select few are vehemently defending their gear advantage and calling it “skill”. It’s an absolute shame.

You’re just trying to gain a personal advantage by forming a coalition with others who don’t have the time to put into the game that those who do have, and thus have an advantage over others in a game that has been intentionally designed to give advantage to those who put in more time (imo).

@Axkivo-rattlegore

IMHO we should be getting the blue gear from rep vendors (as was introduced in a later patch, still more TBC-like than 58 boosts and the pre-patch dilemma) and the epic gear should be much more attainable for lower ranked players. The blue gear being attained from rep vendors will encourage more PvPers to PvE (as if the loot isn’t incentive enough), and give PvE players baseline gear when entering PvP

Or maybe have gear equalization. Pretty sure this is a Retail feature that is implemented in later expansions, but again is a Retail feature.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

This allows everyone to get the full set by the end of the season

This greatly detracts from its value.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

Award progressively more arena points at all ratings as the season goes on. This allows us to keep a system more true to the original, while allowing late joiners to have a chance at gearing up before the next season.

How is this true to original?

@Axkivo-rattlegore

A completely novel idea, award arena points equivalent to the amount of mmr you gain once you are past a certain mmr, up to a cap. For example, every win past 1000 rating will give you arena points equal to the mmr you have earned, but no more than 50, up to a cap of 1000 points. Under this system, it would take you 20 games minimum to achieve the cap, and that would put you at a minimum of 2k rating. I’m sure there are many tweaks that can be made to make this suggestion better (raise the cap later in the season to allow late joiners to gear, allow very minimal arena points like +1 per win past the cap to keep higher rated teams queueing, better calculation for awarding points than just mmr gains to avoid team remaking, etc.).

I met an accountant a few years ago, who after about 3-4 years in Accounting realized that wasn’t what he wanted to do. He went to a coding bootcamp, and not too long after ended up as a game designer working at Blizzard.

Just saying, if you really believe in some of these changes, idk your situation in life, but if it isn’t several steps above a game developer at Blizzard, this might not be too far off of a possibility for you. As much as I disagree with some of your ideas, I think you have some very good ideas, and obviously are passionate about the game.

@Axkivo-rattlegore

make the gear’s stats not work in instanced PvE content or only make the gear work in arenas/bgs.

I feel we’ve been down this road in Retail at some point…

@Axkivo-rattlegore

It’s a real shame

Is it though? I mean, I feel like you have definitely written a lot of text, and you have argued some things reasonable well, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to any of this being a real shame, from what I can tell…

@Axkivo-rattlegore

TL;DR dual spec so more people will play arena and make PvP gear more attainable. Blue sets should be sold through rep vendors to encourage PvPers to PvE more (even though the loot is already incentive enough because it’s required to be competitive) and the epic sets should be more attainable for lower ranked players.

As for this, I don’t really have any strong disagreement, other than Dual Spec. For reasons already stated, I believe, but one is that it’s against the original design and the other is

@Frosto-faerlina

Reducing respec fees solves more problems than dual spec would.