I am understanding, you are not getting my point… The massive difference in power also affects/impacts keys way lower than that in a big way.
It’s true that low and mid tier keys rely less on utility, DPS and CC as the higher ones. So let’s say that rather than 5, there’s about a 3 key level difference to what a more normal group can complete with a Holy Priest vs a meta healer.
That’s a VERY large gap, consider that you are only changing one out of 5 players in the group. Btw doing 3 keys lower than your max potential also often feels like an “easy” key.
So can you complete a +15 key as a Holy Priest?, obviously, but it requires a group that could complete a +18 or higher with a similarly skilled resto druid.
I appreciate the thoughtful post, it definitely gives insight to HPriest right now. Having played a Priest extensively before I quit back in MOP, it’s a little rough to see how far Priests have fallen.
For my 2 cents regarding the 1% argument (and specifically to your question “why don’t we see more of these skilled players representing our spec in higher keys?”), as unfortunate as it is, I think the nature of PVE content makes it very difficult for Blizzard to even consider balancing at that level. Completing a +15 in time is already a daunting feat for the majority of the playerbase, and it is the arbitrary “end-point” established by Blizzard for M+. The fact that we see a meta develop, with teams stacking the same classes and specs at the bleeding edge of M+ progression is exploiting has no real bearing on class balance for 99% of the player base. WoW is no different than any other system in that when you try to push it to the extreme, you will see the system break. The unfortunate reality is that Blizzard cannot balance lower level keys around 5k IO players, that simply wouldn’t be practical.
While I have no advice or suggestion for how to balance classes better, I’ve discovered the only way I really cope with it (I know, it’s hard to say this coming from a Holy Paladin, but I didn’t pick it up knowing it was FOTM) is that balance operates on a boom/bust cycle. Something that is busted right now will eventually get nerfed, and vice versa. I play something because I enjoy it, and because I have real life responsibilities and no longer play as competitively as I use to, I don’t have to stress balance as much.
We’re going to be fundamentally at odds on this topic because we disagree on what constitutes “levels” of keys (“Low”, “Mid”, “High”, etc.).
I see a +15 as a “high” key because the majority of the playerbase has never completed a +15 key to begin with. By definition, it’s a high key.
I think the primary sticking point is looking at M+ from what has been done versus how many have done which keys, because if you look solely at what has been done, you could, in your case, easily make the statement that a +15 is a “Mid” key, because the highest key completed so far is +28.
Every key above +15 reduces that total count down exponentially further even if the jump between each key isn’t as large (I don’t know the specific health/damage ‘jumps’ between each key specifically)
I disagree on this statement. You absolutely can complete a +15 key as a Holy Priest with other roles that have only ever done a +15 key. Unless you mean that that same group could complete the key at +18 with a Resto Druid. To that, it would be just be theorycraft, because it’s certainly not a factual statement.
I see it as an intermediate key because that’s where Blizzard has set the bar for your cache. Most players with enough gear (the easily available gear) and some determination will be able to complete keys to that level.
Also it’s really hard to gauge what % of the players have done what.
Simple example: Back in S1 and S2 when I was most active, my highest key completed on my main was a 17 or 18 (it was harder back then), but I also had at least 4 other characters that had done keys at different ranges varying from +6 to +14ish. The “average” out of the highest key completed by each character was probably around +11.
I think most players who are dedicated enough to the game to play at very high levels also tend to have lower level alts that participate at a much lower level. Also can’t really count those who are uninterested in even trying and just did a random key to see what it was like, which is probably a very large number.
The jumps between each key are equally large at any range, i.e. from a +10 to a +11 is exactly the same jump as from a +20 to +21. (Again it’s multiplicative not linear).
Not factual just a projection based on the factual data we have which is that at the highest level the gap from what the best groups can complete with a Holy Priest and a meta healer is about 5 levels.
Taking into consideration that DPS, utility and CC ins not as valuable at not so high levels I’m only projecting a 3 level difference rather than 5. That’s massive!, you only swapped one spec out of a group of 5.
Completing a +15 in time is already a daunting feat for the majority of the playerbase, and it is the arbitrary “end-point” established by Blizzard for M+. The fact that we see a meta develop, with teams stacking the same classes and specs at the bleeding edge of M+ progression is exploiting has no real bearing on class balance for 99% of the player base. WoW is no different than any other system in that when you try to push it to the extreme, you will see the system break. The unfortunate reality is that Blizzard cannot balance lower level keys around 5k IO players, that simply wouldn’t be practical.
I don’t necessarily disagree with this opinion but one problem that I have with it is that it assumes Blizzard balances around the “end-point”, which is +15s. At the 15s level, Holy Priests make up 10.1% of the healers. This is only trumped in incompetence by Discipline Priests who make up for 8.6%, the lowest on the charts. So yeah, I agree that it’s a lot more of a daunting task for Blizz to balance around the top, but they don’t even balance the arbitrary end-point they’ve created.
I feel like we’d be having a much different conversation if each healer spec were even somewhat equal. But even the end-point Blizzard has created is unbalanced.
A couple of other things (not having to do with you, Subsys). Again, this might be a utopian ideal but I think that if Blizzard just stuck to buffing specs that needed help until each spec was gradually equal, we wouldn’t be having problems at ANY level. This is why I advocate balancing at the highest level, by addressing the issues that worse specs have at the highest level, you also address potential problems that might arise later at the lower level. I personally think that the boom or bust cycle isn’t necessary. I think there’s enough design space to give each spec (total of 6 healing specs btw) unique and flavorful ways of dealing with situations, having strengths, weaknesses, utilities, ways of outputting damage, get-out-of-jail-free cards, etc.
Lastly, I’d appreciate it if people linked me some sort of source for the ever-popular “99% of players won’t do +15s” stat. I’d also like to know if this is a stat that’s based on ALL players or just players that do M+. If 99% of the players that participate in Mythic+ don’t do +15s, I think there’s a bit of a case to be made. But if we’re talking about 99% of the player base altogether, I think it’s a lot more intellectually dishonest. Not all players will even touch M+. Some are PvPers, some are craftsmen, some are auctionhouse players, some are raiders, some are collectors and trasmog farmers, some are RPers. To congregate all these players into the M+ box and use that as an aggregate, I think, is frankly a bit dumb (no offense). But if anyone has actual stats to link me, I’d really appreciate it.
This applies in low keys yea… But in a +17-+20 key the moment you use serenity if you are not using flash of light (especially with the bis M+ azerite traits giving you increased cd reduction and increased healing for a few seconds after using holy word serenity) then you are actively gimping yourself. Not only are you stalling out your serenity being off cooldown for longer, but if you don’t use the window after serenity to spam heals (even if no one actually needs those heals) then you are not making use of the BIS azerite traits extra healing and extra cd reduction.
And if your response to this is… then use other azerite traits… Well gl actually getting the healing output you need in a +20 without 3 stacking that specific azerite trait.
All in all, in higher content, if your serenity/sanctify is on cooldown and you are smiting… you are actively gimping yourself and your team. Especially if you are smiting in the short window after using Serenity. Which, might I add, is super counter-productive, because the trait encourages you to keep healing and possibly overlap the juicy echo of light you just put up with serenity.
Do I still smite spam/chastise all I want in +10s or +12s and stuff? Absolutely. I could probably heal a +10 as shadow though, so I don’t think that’s a good comparison to make.
4 levels in keys is huge. 4 keys is roughly what, 46% increased HP (and Im not sure about damage scaling now) regardless of key level.
This is a bit offtopic, but this one was of my concerns when Blizzard decided to make Dungeon running “competitive”. Much like how Arena caused a lot of issues (some argue that it ruined PvP/PvP design for the game), M+ puts additional stipulations on what a class needs to excel.
A big part of what Rdruid is so good in M+ is how mobile it is, and how they can pre-roll HoTs because they get into combat. A good druid can Lifebloom+rejuv+regrowth a tank while running to the next pack, then has open GCDs because of this to sneak in damage. A single Sunfire does a ton of damage even. It has a lot of instant casts and mobility which go a lot way in M+.
Holy’s whole setup just doesn’t mesh with M+ running. It has some nice tools, but the throughput feels like a holy paladin without Wings.
Eh… Making things competitive doesn’t “cause” issues. It just brings to light certain issues about the spec that already existed in the first place, but were not as visible because the spec was never truly tested.
I’m sure if car companies only tested 15 mph collisions. Every car would win “safest car of the year” awards.
Yes. The truth is, Holy will always be the worst healer for mythic+ simply because of how the spec is designed. This will not change unless Holy gets a complete overhaul (which they aren’t doing)
However, there are some things they can do to help close the obnoxiously large gap, like helping us out utility wise and mobility wise. I think that’s the issue here.
Yes, Holy in general isn’t the best for dungeon running. But some of the spec’s weaknesses are just obnoxious at this point. Resto druids have unlimited utility, while priests of all specs have… mass dispel. Other than warlocks, we’re the only class with still no baseline mobility. Compare that to a druid that can attack and heal on the move with super short tank and personal cooldowns. Or a paladin with sac, aura mastery, immunities, and the best healer damage in the game. Or a monk that brings ring of peace, and the physical damage debuff. What do priests bring that other classes do not? Fort? That can be covered by a scroll, ez.
Greater Fade baseline would be amazing. Angelic Feather baseline would also be awesome. Buff dominant mind and make it baseline for all specs. (It can be our humanoid version of DK’s control undead) A lot of our dead talents for both Disc and Holy need some help. And do resto druids really need to be the only healers with a brez?
While Holy and to a lesser extent Disc will always be weaker in dungeons because of their design, there is still a lot they could do to help close the gap that they refuse to do, and that’s the frustrating thing.
It doesnt need an overhaul though… Their offensive spells just have to benefit their defensive holy words… That’s literally all that needs to change. Their whole spec is built around cycling powerful spells and their cds. But dpsing halts that whole cycle. And if you aren’t actively draining cds of your holy word heals, then you are actively gimping your ability to keep your team alive in high keys.
Holy priests can still heal +25’s… they just wont ever time them because they can’t provide any offensive utility to help speed therun up.
I disagree, I think there’s simple things that could be done to Holy that would make the spec much more valuable at higher end keys and very welcome at the lower level.
I think I might make a different post for what I think could be done short of a full rework of Holy’s design that could greatly increase our viability.
I saw a thread in GD not too long ago asking for advice for what healer to roll for +15 carries. The advice looked no different than what you’d use for pushing: Paladin or Druid only, no items, Final Destination. HPriest selling points like “simplicity”, 'straightforward", “excellent at padding” etc. had no bearing on making +15s easier. Some claims that healer imbalance didn’t matter because any spec could proc Twilight Devastation were made, but I push X to doubt at that.
They nerfed M+ AP rewards for everyone multiple times in BFA because a few players were doing more than everyone and getting more AP than anyone else. They lower M+ iLvl reward on the first few weeks of every patch because a tiny fraction of the playerbase farms high end keys all day and would get too much loot, so they just make everyone’s loot worse. A few players farmed what they thought was too much AP in Islands, so they nerfed Islands…for everyone.
You seeing the pattern yet? This happens Constantly. What those few players do affects you, you can choose to ignore it, but that doesn’t make it go away.
Also in Torghast in the Shadowlands Alpha, Blizzard was afraid that a few players might wait around for Cooldowns for every pull to be able to push higher floor levels, So they added Torments*, basically stacking debuffs if you took “too long” on a floor. Another example of a couple players making the game worse for everyone because Blizz balances around them.
*Note: Torments got reverted after nearly every Alpha tester gave very very negative feedback, though this kind of reversal rarely happens and everyone was really surprised they actually did remove them.
It the same difference between a +2 and a +7, the same difference between a +5 and a +10. It’s how M+ scaling works. If this only affects a fraction of a fraction, then why are 50% of ALL M+ Healers either Druids or Paladins when there are 6 healing specs? This affects everyone.
An equally geared Druid can do 5+ levels higher than a Holy Priest, because an equally geared Druid does at least 50% more healing than a Holy Priest in 5 man content and +5 level increase is ALWAYS 50% damage difference.
You keep saying it doesn’t make a difference because a Holy Priest “can” heal keys lower than 15s, but you are completely ignoring how easy it is for them to do so. I “Can” lift 100 pound box, it’s freaking hard and I can barely do it once, but I “Can”, a 300 Lbs weightlifter can do it much much easier. And when it’s Blizzard who arbitrarily choose 1 or 2 healers to be the weight lifters, you can’t sit there and say it’s all the same for everyone.
That’s not a good analogy. The issue of competitiveness has to do with whats focused on. Go back to WoD, there was definitely some big gaps in performance in classes for dungeons, but overall, no one really cared. As long as you could get the gold challenge mode complete, that’s all that mattered. Nowdays you have streamers making a leveling off how much they push dungeons.
A better analogy would be socks. You could get some plain old cotton socks and go on a 1-2 mile run and have no problem. You wouldn’t even care about the sock’s ability to keep your foot dry and prevent blisters. You just want a comfortable sock for running that looks and feels nice. Now if you were to instead run a longer distance, say 8 miles in those same socks, they made become a problem. You may start getting blisters and make the whole process unenjoyable. You can still run, but its just not as fun or good for your feet.
Or you can just go out and buy running socks and never have that problem.
This is a very good post. I am tired of seeing different classes or specs being declined for Mythic Plus keys that are levels +20 or under because of the 1% that do MDI (or stream on Twitch) and then fans that watch and think that it correlates with lower lvl keys. When I am tanking on my alt and running my own keys, I never discriminate any healer or dps based on the class that they enjoy playing.
“Imagine a perfectly-efficient Torghast group. They are willing to do whatever it takes to climb the tower. At the highest difficulty they can manage, that means waiting for all cooldowns on every pull – unless there’s some reason not to do so. This is our problem: that’s not fun to play, but it’s the right way to play if you want to win.”
This is not “a few” players. The path of least resistance always has a cascading effect on the playerbase. As soon as one person figures out the ‘best’ path forward, it spreads until everyone is doing it. It’s certainly not WoW-specific, as it affects virtually every multiplayer game.
It would start with a few players, but then it starts becoming mandatory, both solo and in groups. PuGs will demand you wait, and your pre-mades will demand you wait. Blizzard wasn’t catering to a few players, they were afraid of what inevitably was going to happen.
I think you mis-read here. “A fraction of a fraction” is referencing the amount of total players that have done >= +20.
I highly disagree with this unless there are expansion-specific traits/features that are enabling this. Putting a Holy Priest and a Restoration Druid next to each other in the same gear and comparing raw throughput and nothing more, they are virtually on equal ground. Restoration has a flat line of throughput that grows in stairs-like steps whenever another HoT is added, while Holy has larger, and sharper spikes of throughput.
Since spells are based on % of attack power, you can compare spells and easily see that Restoration Druid’s individual spells aren’t somehow 50% stronger than Holy’s, regardless of the content.
As a Holy Priest, I can anecdotally say that I’ve never had trouble healing < +15 keys myself. Not avoiding mechanics or understanding affixes is going to trash a run regardless of what healer you’re playing, but on its own, the incoming damage has never been an issue for me.
Hpriests are currently in a spot where their kit doesn’t really synergize with itself in a mythic+ environment. For raiding it works because raiding often requires a lot of spammed healing, which obviously synergizes very well Power Word Heals and the heals that reduce their cooldowns. But in Mythic+ you probably won’t be spamming heals. And so their synergies fall apart. At a low level (2 mile run) this doesn’t matter, and isn’t even noticeable. At a higher level (8 mile run) the flaws and shortcomings of the spec in that specific environment begin to become very noticeable.
Also… I almost feel like discrediting my analogy in place of an analogy that said the exact same thing is maybe you just looking for argument. But it is what it is. I’m happy to use your analogy too. I’m flexible
Edit: As many other posts here state. Holy Priests can keep their team alive no problem. Their healing throughput has never been in question. The problem is that choosing to DPS is oftentimes actively gimping you being able to keep your power word heals off cd. So more than any other healing spec in the game, holy priests struggle with finding that downtime to dps. And as much as some people would like to argue that healers shouldnt have to dps… In a timed environment, two healers that can both keep their team alive need other tools to help speed the run up if they want to set themselves apart. All that said, creating synergies between holy priest dps and healing will absolutely improve the spec overall. Competitive content is just helping us see more clearly that that needs to be done.
I don’t think you need to be talking about the top 1%, or +23 vs +28, or bringing utility or damage to the group to make your point. High keys, low keys… I think anyone who plays multiple healers sees the problem no matter what level they play at.
I have a similarly geared monk and priest, and on bad bursts or grievous in general I feel like I’m doing work on the priest. And I mean hard work, like busting up concrete in July. The monk effortlessly makes it all go away while still doing dps. Like holding down a desk in an air-conditioned office in July. Sure both classes can do it, and I still run holy over disc on burst weeks… but I’m not having fun. I’m at work. On my monk I’m having fun.
Played time on the priest is about 5x played time on the monk, too. It’s not like I don’t know what buttons to push. Some classes are just more equal than others