FEEDBACK: Torghast, Tower of the Damned

Ran the tower a few times last night and this morning:

The Mawsworn Shadewalker spawning is the most frustrating experience in existence in the tower right now. When you start at a heroic or higher level floor (I am starting at floor 31 right now), it spawns with ~50k hp, about twice that of every other non elite. It also does more damage than nearly everything else in the floor. And it can instantly spawn again after you kill it. So like this morning while I was waiting for an elite to path to a safe spot to pull, I had a shadewalker spawn, only for after I killed it, to instantly spawn again. I just alt-f4’d because that isnt an enjoyable experience.

I get wanting to incentivize people to stay in combat and not have to deal with this mob, but when you are pulling on the early floors with little anima power, one of these spawning is literally taking a minute to kill, to then instantly spawn another and have to do it again. You just are sitting here frustratingly dealing with a mob that doesn’t actually progress your run.

3 Likes

Probably not relevant in Live, but if you enter Torghast in Hero’s Rest and exit (voluntarily of by dc) you wind up at the Flaska in Aspirant’s Rest. I have been having errors in AR, especially after letting Torghast time out. Wonder if they are related.

The fire damage debuff is also super lame and annoying, rather than dangerous, at least at lower floors. I was outhealing the damage just via leech from having a Ferocity pet. I was almost able to outheal it at 3 stacks just with the leech from maintaining Mend Pet.

The two bear spawns are exactly as annoying (and equally nondangerous if you aren’t AFK) as the Shadewalker.

I’m not seeing any positive gameplay from these torment affixes.

1 Like

I maintain that Treasure Goblins that despawn after some arbitrary timer would be a better incentive to move quickly.

2 Likes

Sorry for the triple post, but one other thing occured to me - for the fire DoT torment, you are actually slowing down anybody who doesn’t inherently have strong self sustain or build into self healing via anima powers, because they will need to stop and eat constantly.

1 Like

We agree that one of the best things about Torghast is that you can play at your own pace, without feeling rushed. We certainly don’t want to make Torghast into a fast-paced, timed game mode. We have instead added Torments, which are designed to provide some additional texture for players at high levels, and to solve a problem that arises when extremely difficult content meets our often cooldown-based class design.

Here’s what Torments should do.

Imagine a perfectly-efficient Torghast group. They are willing to do whatever it takes to climb the tower. At the highest difficulty they can manage, that means waiting for all cooldowns on every pull – unless there’s some reason not to do so. This is our problem: that’s not fun to play, but it’s the right way to play if you want to win.

Torments should apply just enough pressure that this group can still kill every single creature on the floor (which takes a while, since these enemies have lots of HP), while still being careful, using crowd control, taking a few seconds to rest or strategize between pulls, and even then, maybe sometimes waiting just a little longer for a cooldown before engaging. If that is the most efficient way to play Torghast, then we’ve hit our mark exactly. If that perfectly efficient group has to skip big portions of a floor because Torment debuffs are getting too out of hand, we have a problem.

Here’s what Torments shouldn’t do.

  • Make Torghast into a fast-paced, time-constrained feature that feels too similar to existing timed features like Mythic Keystone Dugeons, Horrific Visions, or Island Expeditions.
  • Prevent you from taking a break when you need one.
  • Intimidate casual players from playing Torghast altogether.

How can testers help us tune it?

Playtest Torghast, and let us know how it feels. We appreciate all feedback, and the most valuable feedback for this feature will come from experience in Torghast, rather than discussions about time-based difficulty that aren’t informed by in-game experience.

If something feels bad, let us know why.

  • Did you feel rushed when you didn’t want to? Was that pressure because of actual game difficulty, or was it simply the presence of the Torment itself?
  • Were you unable to defeat a level because of Torments, even though you were playing at a normal pace?
  • Did you want to take a break mid-run but felt like you couldn’t?
  • Do you feel like Torments are appropriate, but should be introduced at a higher level than they currently are (12)?
  • Alternately, did a particular Torment feel underwhelming? Do you still feel like you can wait 10 minutes between every single pull without threat of being overwhelmed?

There are several different Torments in the current Alpha. Some affect spawning and environment, and others affect your character directly. Some increase over time, and others remain at a fixed difficulty.

  • How do they feel in comparison to one another?
  • Does a particular Torment feel more punishing or unfun than the others?

We’ve seen some emotional response to this change, which we take to mean that you care about Torghast being fun. We do too.

Please keep up the productive discussions, and we’ll keep listening.

20 Likes
😡 You Guys Just Cant Help Yourselves, Can You?
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
You just couldn't resist it, could you Blizzard? Torghast was too good to be true, so you had to add a timer
Torghast, Tower of the Damned Timer 🕛
Timers added to Torghast
Can someone remind Blizzard about this slide about Torghast at Blizzcon?
Blizzard Beta stance: "We will listen to feedback from the playerbase*"
Why does Blizz Tell me what is "fun"?
Torghast Torments Suggestion
Shadowlands is already on the verge of being terrible
Torghast Torments
Torghast Leaderboards?
This has to be the worst Blizzard comment I've ever seen
Bellular pretty much gets it
This has to be the worst Blizzard comment I've ever seen
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
Rip Shadowlands
Torghast, Tower of the Damned Timer 🕛
Torghast, Tower of the Damned Timer 🕛
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
My Torment Torghast experience
You just couldn't resist it, could you Blizzard? Torghast was too good to be true, so you had to add a timer
You just couldn't resist it, could you Blizzard? Torghast was too good to be true, so you had to add a timer
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
Blizz Confirms Torghast DOES NOT Have Timers!
My Torment Torghast experience

Well I know a few people that are casual about wow, they eventually get AOTC before the end of expansion and explore quite a bit of content, just not the Mythic Kind. The timer set within Torghast for them sets a bit of pressure. A ticking clock makes it harder to make choices in how you approach the experience and create stress.

Stress against a tough enemy with mechanics isn’t what holds them back, nor interrupts and CC chains to make tough pulls easier.

Rather the timer itself, a clock thats ticking down, or a mechanism similar to a ticking clock makes them lose clear heads and ruins experience.

Getting those people (and I mean that in a loving way) into Mythic 0s isn’t hard, but a +2 is almost impossible due to the timer. For me who does keys regularly and killed Nzoth Mythic a timer isn’t an issue. Essentially an extra mechanic or a curve ball into a run isn’t something that should scare casual player, but something that feels like “hurry up and get to the exit” isn’t ideal for them.

19 Likes

The big issue right now is they persist even on the vendor floors.
That can’t be intended right?
Quite annoying having adds spawn when you are trying to vendor and repair.

Other than that, they should not start on a universal floor, they should start so many floors in.
Today I tried to start at floor 25 to emulate last week’s situation and its BRUTAL now when each mob takes a minute to kill and you have to deal with penalties that are acting like I am AFK when I am just slow.

My ideal torment idea is patrols or extra mobs, but they should not spawn when you are on vendor levels, they should not happen so often or at all at the start of runs, and ideally they would stop when you are lost.

This place is a maze some times, and if the goal is to punish CD waiting, try to find a way to not punish me when I am legit lost like always seems to happen.
Maybe that’s just a problem with Alpha though atm.
No map, and a lack of variability of the art makes it hard to navigate some places.

16 Likes

Maybe my experience differs from other folks in this thread because, as a druid, I use Ysera’s Gift to counter percentage-based damage, such as Soulforge’s effect. Even after reaching 17 and literally spamming Moonfire through the past few floors, I only had to use Regrowth after running over traps. I also took reduced health powers, and my “On HIt Healing” was 1000% my HP pool… lol

I think the idea for “start of the floor is a safe area” is great and should be utilized more. It might be hard to do, but what if the “Exit Torghast” object had a “Sanctuary” as well?

While in Sanctuay mode, you’d be set to an “Invisible Phase” where the Jailer’s servants ignore you, and you become immune to Torments while active. It’s exactly like the safe spot, but the cooldown starts after you exit the Sanctuary. I’d be okay with a 20-30min cooldown between uses. If it were to reset cooldowns and clear Sated, that’d be nice too. And this does means your cooldowns reset after starting a new floor.

3 Likes

My perspective is entirely as a solo player, so keep that in mind.

I was frustrated, but my progress was not meaningfully impeded by Torments. They are irritating, not difficult, to play around.

No. I failed only one run this far, to the Tarragrue, because I rolled a Broker floor where the broker was surrounded by traps and I was unable to interact with him without getting killed.

Yes. With any of the three Torments I have encountered this far, AFK for any amount of time mid-floor means death. Even with the safe zone at the start of each floor, some patrols move close enough to aggro while you are “safe”, which forced you into combat, dispelling the “Resting” buff, making you vulnerable to death by Torment effects.

I feel Torments are completely incompatible with the basic premise of Torghast, at least for a solo player. They may be less annoying with a group, I wouldn’t know. I will test in a proper group at some point during Alpha, but I have ZERO intention of ever going in to Torghast in a group when Shadowlands goes live.

They do not currently always start at Floor 12 though. I had the fire Torment at floor 1-6, then no torment at all from 7-12, then the 2x bears torment from 13-18. On a different run, I had no Torment from 1-12, then Stalkers from 13-16 (that was the run I failed).

All the Torments I played with have felt like an attentiveness check more than anything else. There was absolutely nothing nudging me forward any faster, just an annoyance I had to deal with. I felt forced to use a Ferocity pet to combat the fire Torment, when I would have preferred to run Lone Wolf. I built a “glass cannon” build focused almost entirely on up front burst damage (Aimed Shot damage, Frostbite Wand, crit damage, Careful Aim, etc), and it was a lot of fun, but having to keep a pet out took away from it somewhat.

The fire DoT would actually make floors longer on classes without good self sustain, as you would need to stop and eat regularly. It is nice that the DoT doesn’t break the food buff, but that is about the only decent thing I can think of here.

Why not offer additional incentives for clearing quickly rather than attempting to punish players for taking their time?

29 Likes

Feedback on Torments: from a single player warrior PoV

Some of these “affixes” are quite cool, and adds a bit of extra flavor to the Torghast experience. However, the “affixes” mentioned down below are not in a great state - At least for solo gameplay on warrior.

The spawn rate of the assasin is faar too frequent. It becomes a frustating pestilence, rather than a tricky reminder to keep up the phase. It feels like it lacks an consistent internal cooldown. Example of what could improve the affix: the spawn should only accure after 20 seconds of none active gameplay.

Examples of rapid occurences:

  • Just started a new level and about to pull the first pack.
  • Barely left combat to sit and eat before the next pull.
  • Went off the beaten path to pick up an anima power.
  • Attacked again after having just killed an assasin after picking up the previously mentioned anima power. We are talking seconds here. Trying to get back into combat.

Eye of Skoldus: seems a lot more fair, in terms of spawn frequency. It kept me away from using my phone mid run, without it being too difficult to deal with.

The Bane of solo warriors in combat:
When I saw this affix I thought “Second wind will solve this no problem” What I didn’t realise was the fact that this affix nulifies Second Wind completely. SW activates when you haven’t taken dmg for 5sec, this affix ticks every 5sec.

Why is this bad?
The issue accures when I wanna take on elites by myself. The ticking dot from Soulforge Heat prevents me from healing back up again while kiting,
(which I personally feel like is a great bit of gameplay and use of talent.)

This makes soloing certain melee elites pretty much impossible, because there is no way to recover enough health to endure the entire fight, even with CS and Impending Victroy.

To summarize:
this affix makes Second wind a dead talent. The talent that helps me through almost any encouter.

5 Likes

Response to your call out for feedback on torments, I got the soul forge heat, breath of coldheart and mort’regar’s echoes. I will update when i get the others.

Soulforge heat at 5% per tick is nasty and feels way harder than the others. Even on a character with good surviability you want to try finish that level as fast as possible. It needs to be changed either to a long time between ticks like once a minute or change them to not be percentage damage.

The other two felt underwhelming to soulforge and i suspect the other two torments but it is an insidious thing were that would ramp up if you were there an hour. Though that leads to a greater discussion where torments are more useful to making level more interesting and harder than as a soft timer. it would be better to have soft timer that is uniform say waves of adds and only start if you spent 15 min outside the safe zone(accumulative so you don’t hop in and out of it) and have it be a small once every 5-10 min till 30 min then get faster and faster till its a wave every 1 min and then have the waves get stronger so it’s a quite hard at the 1 hour mark. In short than the soft timer but a soft floor enrage that uniform for all of torghast( maybe change it every week) or that torghast run and use torments as a way to make levels more difficult at higher levels.

As I said said yesterday that safe spot at the start of the level needs to stay permenantly as a place to a afk if real life stuff happens( have it not work in combat so people don’t pull mobs into the safe spot). My add to that 1 -2 hours in torghast is fine as it’s deliberately not a timed mode and as long as people can take a short real life break and come back to it, no one will care about the time spent in there.

Lastly my hunter did get torments start at level 6 which honestly felt fine. I don’t have an opinion on whether they should start at 6 or 12 with there current iteration

2 Likes

Soulforge wasn’t fun as a feral druid. I got it on a floor before 10 (possibly bug?), and the damage itself was trivial thanks to self healing. But breaking stealth every 3 seconds or whatever just made me want to respec.

I imagine it will be even more annoying for rogues once they can get in.

6 Likes

WHile i understand the need to stop people from going “alright we heroed, time to afk till the next one”

But i feel the best way to do that may be something like “When you hero, the next time you cast it, it give 5% less haste” resetting per floor. as most of the time you should only use it once or twice per floor and that would be fine.
cause as it is now, it makes eating food betweren pulls or going afk to take a quick pee super, checking your powers, or sorting your bag… annyoing

Also this punishes you for exploring. it makes a map that has no branching paths and just 1 straight settup much better, cause if you go down an extra path to go find what is in it, that is going to add SO MUCH more time to your travel time.

imagine this

To get from start of floor to end of floor 100 seconds
Floor with fork at start means
50 seconds, then you find its the end, so you go back, and go the other way, another 50 seconds, then go back, and boom, the maps are the same size, but because one map has 2 wings suddenly your travel time is 250 seconds.

17 Likes

I tried a hunter in twisting corridors today and they had a lot better selection of abilities than my druid did. However, I am still encountering the same problem too much incoming damage - mobs die fast but heaven help me if I have to walk through one of those pools on the floor in order to select an anima power.

I really really hate all this platform type of content you are putting in the game. I have problems with heights so get all stressed out just by walking up those chains or doing a boss fight on a platform.

My opinion of this content still hasn’t changed, I just can’t see myself doing this.

I really wish you wouldn’t have gated all the legendaries behind doing one type of content. Legion system of legendaries was so much better whereas you could select the content you like and get a legendary.

7 Likes

Legiondairies were god awful because it was completely up to RNG. You got lucky: great! You got unlucky: no raid spot. Deterministic legendary choices with a specific way to get it rather than random drop is way better. So far Torghast is getting great reviews in terms of fun from most, so I’m sure most will have absolutely no issue doing it.

6 Likes

Running through as a WW Monk- twisting

A few general notes before going over monk-specific anima powers:

Briefly got on yesterday and had the Nightfae spells, couldn’t do enough to give feedback on them other than to say the Faeline Stomp VFX is beautiful.

Had Necrolord today- but only got Fleshcraft, not the class ability, could not find it in the spellbook.

For some reason when I zoned in tonight I was in “the upper reaches” with multiple elite pairs all over the floor. Was a pain to get to the next floor portal, and when I went to floor 2, I saw wandering elites with 60k health- and me with two (poor) anima powers noped out and reset. This put me in the Soulforges which was much more doable.

Monk Anima Powers:

Bugged:

The Tiger vs the Crane:
Cool concept, but I got Tiger Style on my first roll- and then it never changed with subsequent rolls.

Hit Scheme:
Decent, would have been good but the tooltip doesn’t mention that it’s only an 8 sec buff. Would be better if it did not time-out, but was expended on use. Trying to build it up to use on a group and then having it fall off before you can use it was disappointing. If I had known it had such a short duration, probably would not have taken it.

36 Pressure Points:
Doesn’t work. Checked with a stopwatch, does not decrease the cooldown.

Constellations:
No tooltip, no idea- couldn’t even bug report the spell when I took it.

Celestial Dynasty:
Good power, but the “is summoned the first time you enter combat on a floor” did not happen on floor 2 or 4- then it popped on floor 5 and 6… no idea why.

Working:

Flowing Like the Chi:
Really liked this one- changed up my playstyle to take advantage of it, which made it a fun power.

Grandmaster’s Mythos/Gift/Ultimatum:
Any power that gives an extra talent is decent

Shadowboxing:
Nice buff to the spell

Storm with No Warning, Feather of a Hundred Flocks:
Useful, but nothing special

Rolling Tiger:
Situationally useful for a group- meh for a solo run.

EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT:
< Just remove Torments. >


Speaking of torments:
Currently, if you have unlocked it, you can start on floor 37 with 1 anima power. That in itself is a MASSIVE challange, where the player needs to take calculated risks, to overcome even smaller enemies in search for more anima powers.
Besides when you reach absurd numbers of anima powers and become completely OP, to me, the most fun, engaging and challanging part of torghast is starting out on a high floor, and make an attempt at making it through. Althought it may take time and require cooldowns.

I dont think Torments are the answer in these cases.

An example of a rough time:
If it takes me 60 minutes to clear the first floor (floor 37) right now without affixes, how long will it take while my damage is reduced with 60% ? I dont think that adds any “fun” to the Torghast experience.

If the torments absolutly must be there, at least hold off with adding torments to the floors till like … floor 42?
So people at least have a fighting chance to stand against the torments and all the other challenges they are already dealing with.

Honestly % based torments are not fun. If I die to a caster, because I’v spend X minutes on a floor, and thus takes X % increased spell dmg, and just dies, because my interupt is on cd, thats not fun at all.


Torment alternatives:
Mythic plus affixes - but make new ones please:

  • Volcanic
  • Explosive
  • Quaking

affixes from M+ adds an extra bit of difficulty to m+ run, without it just being X % dmg reduced/taken, and it keeps you on ur toes.
IF Torments HAS TO stay, can we get something more along the lines of those types of affixes?
Something that changes the way you wanna go about the run, rather than “I need to rush before I get 1shot or can’t kill things”.

Im taking this from the perspective of solo play. I do NOT know how easy or difficult they are to deal with, together with other players.


Warrior gone fishing:
Atm im also fishing for the correct anima powers that I think will help me the most at the beginning of a run, ontop of fishing for rooms that doesn’t contain skeletal remains/cauldrons or start me off against an elite.
If I have to start fishing for “the best/easiet” torment, I think thats too much.

7 Likes

I’m loving Torghast, and am excited to continue to play through and test it!

In general, I feel that the idea of Torments, i.e. having some sort of ramp in difficulty the longer you are playing, is fine for a WoW roguelite. This is very common in roguelite games with character powers, where the longer you play the harder the difficulty scales. Risk of Rain 2 is a good example because the player has access to the character powers as well as the upgrades to those powers throughout the levels. In contrast, Binding of Issac would be a poor example since the characters power is primarily through the power ups found. The crux of the issue when it comes to balance is how long it takes the difficulty to scale, how hard it scales, and what exactly is affected by the scaled effect.

Risk of Rain 2 has two primary difficulty scales; time spent on a round of play, and current level of your progression. Both of these combine to influence the difficulty (read: health/damage/mob type) of the enemy units that your character faces. This is countered by the power-ups you acquire by playing the game, so that while the enemies get stronger, so do you.

It seems like Torments are Blizzard’s way to implement this type of system in a less straight-forward way. You have Torments (read: overall time in a round of play) and current level of your progression combining to make the levels get slowly harder as you progress/time increases. However, Torments are not a flat ramp tool that affects the enemies directly, but instead seem to add “debuffs” to your character that scale over time. Some examples include:

  • damaging your character for a % of your total health every 5 seconds that slowly increases over time

  • out of combat time-based chance to spawn adds that attack you, slowly increasing their health and damage

  • % physical damage increase taken that slowly increases over time

There are 6 in total, but all follow along the lines of debuffing your character in some way.

It’s this inherent difference, debuffs to your character vs buffing enemy mobs, that I believe is a cause of concern for the current Torment system. I would recommend that Blizzard implements Torments in a way that indirectly affects the players, i.e. a Torment that adds a buff to mobs that make them auto for % additional damage, or spend too long on a level and a mob arrives that has a cast that increases your CD’s by 10 seconds like Ra-Den trash. Annoying and troublesome, but doable.

I won’t say the above are good ideas, but the general goal with Torments should be where the player isn’t directly affected, but instead the overall difficulty of the mobs you are fighting increases. This would allow a lot of player choice on how to handle the current level (“do I take a break and make this level harder than normal, or do I blast through it and get as many power ups as I can before ramping starts/gets difficult”). It would also create a system where the player isn’t directly punished for waiting for CD’s, but instead causes the fights to potentially last longer and/or be more difficult, thus the player having to choose between letting the enemy get harder to deal with or waiting for bloodlust.

Would love to hear other’s thoughts! RoR2 is an excellent game, and any direction Blizzard can take from it is a step in the right direction.

6 Likes

All you had to do is keep playing what you normally do. They could have made a system where they let you earn these legendary crafting materials from whatever content you enjoy and that would please us both. No instead they force everyone into that tower and people like you will laud it as a success just because you get to pick the legendary you want.

2 Likes