Well for the assassins bit that’s not something necessarily he does himself, concretely, for him it’s something he planned in the abstract so it’s more easily rationalized. Where as when he interferes with Sylvanas and Malfurions duel it is concrete, so the feelings it invokes are immediate for him. “I just interfered in an honorable duel, from behind, when I should not have.” This isn’t just marching through ranks of soldiers, where everything is hectic and allowed, it is a one on one between two leaders in which he throws his axe into the backs of one of them by surprise. So, say what you will about whether it’s insane or not, it’s obviously some type of part of old Orcish honor which Sylvanas misjudged.
Overall I agree with Malfurion though that the entire war lacks honor, and I think the story has been Saurfang coming to terms with that too. That Sylvanas lied to him. That she lied him into a war that was not, in fact, Good for the Horde.
The goals weren’t contradictory. Anduin said they would go after Sylvanas after the Zandalari fleet was no longer going to support her.
Anduin thought this meant by getting the Zandalari to agree to be neutral (without telling anyone that’s what he thought).
And Wyrmbane did this by blowing up half the Zandalari fleet and making them no longer a naval force that would be a threat any more.
Either way, their goal was the same, and achieved, even if the means to the ends were different in their minds.
Which was my point in that character motivations are bent and distorted by what Blizzard wants to prolong and get to.
I keep acting like the Glineas were the ironclad point of anything because neither Saurfang or Sylvanas ever come up with any other way that the Alliance would split, as the burning of Teldrassil sure didn’t break the Alliance’s hope or spread festering dispair like Sylvanas rambled about.
My analysis is there for anyone to read. You can continue to insist what’s there isn’t there without actually analyzing yourself for why, but that won’t actually change my posts above no matter how many times you want to claim it’s not much.
We have very different interpretations of Sylvanas. Edge of Night definitely makes Sylvanas into a person who would fly off the handle and senselessly destroy anything she discarded.
Sylvanas definitely could have thought she was lying, but if she did she ended up ironically telling the truth with that line.
What? She wasn’t arguing with/killing Saurfang because her face was so flushed (can an undead’s face go flush?) full of rage that she didn’t want Saurfang or Nathanos to look at her.
Night Elves even went to Lordaeron. But yes, you are right, she was right in knowing the Alliance would come for Lordaeron. Because she had told Saurfang that was what was going to happen if the Horde tried to win dishonorably.
Which Sylvanas should have known his ideas of honor were abitrary before even asking him to plan the attack, or at the very least realized it in the middle of their planning when he sent our “honorable” rogues to sneak attack the Night Elves. Telling him to win honorably without being able to predict what he thought was honorable would be extremely foolish.
You don’t have to see the same things as I do. That’s how vagueness works. You do, however, have to admit that the whole passage was filled with vagueness.
Sure is. Oh, wait. Nope. Because argument from popularity is the assertion that because my point was popular it must be true. I didn’t say it must be true. Rather that what you think isn’t necessarily true, either. And you being one person who disagrees with me not really mattering or diminishing that other people might agree with me.
To be fair, I don’t think Worgen will get Night Warrior character customization. But if they do, that would be pretty sweet.
Both Shandris and Genn will agree with working with the Horde coming up in Nazjatar. And Genn himself was even personally at the Battle of Dazar’alor.
Nah, I’ll come back with something like:
Malfurion regrowing trees is just a rebuttable against the idea that Horde damage to Darkshore couldn’t be undone or would limit Night Elf resources.
As addressed above, completely arbitrary idea of what honor is, yep. Saurfang only cared that he himself and his solders were being honorable (whatever that means at any given moment), not that his enemies also had to adhere to his sense of honor.
I don’t disagree with you there, as, once again, Blizzard distorts and bends character motivation to be whatever they need it to be to get to the story they want to get to.
And destroy a huge chunk of the Horde’s remaining fleet as well.
But yes, Sylvanas really needs to stop betting against miracles, because it’s consistently not been paying off for her.
Spent in a meat grinder of a war that no one could win. What Saurfang wanted was a war that would bring prosperity to the Horde. Or glorious death in defeat. Lok-tar ogar. A meat grinder war where honor was stripped away would not bring glory.
Zekhan: Yes, of course, but... If I do fall, may it be with honor in glorious combat.
Varok Saurfang: There will be no glory today.
Varok Saurfang: Only pain.
If Malfurion lived and brought the fight back to Teldrassil, the Horde could have tried it’s best to fight him off, and at the very least could have kept their honor if they were defeated.
They barely showed up to SoO. The Night Elf forces didn’t even go into Orgrimmar itself. They just held the door open for everyone else.
I don’t have the kind of faith in Blizzard to think they wouldn’t do just that.
Given how desperate Horde players are to find any fault in the Alliance to justify fighting against them, I could actually these types of Horde players actually jumping onto the Anduin band wagon so that they could boo and hiss at Tyrande since they’ve lost Jaina and Genn as their warmonger motivation.
It’s entirely reasonable to need constant updates on something in order to say it’s like how it was last presented, because it is unreasonable to say something is still like how it was last presented without confirmation.
You are right in that assuming what hasn’t been confirmed (a change from what was last presented) would be headcanon. Because assuming canon is what headcanon is. And I am right in that assuming what hasn’t been confirmed (that nothing has changed from what was last presented) is also headcanon.
I don’t assume canon. I speculate and propose what I see is likely. But I don’t declare my views to be canon like you have. That’s what I don’t like about your status quo stance.
People are rolling their eyes and predicting that they’ll make Sylvanas Kerrigan 2.0 exactly to be contrarian because people want her to be Garrosh 2.0 instead, you know.
I don’t think they’ll ever get out of the Alliance being reactionary, no.
But they can make the races more distinctive and independent exactly the way they did with the Darkshore Warfront and giving the Night Elves their fangs back: By focusing on their aesthetics and spending time making them look impressive and, you know, not boring.
The entire Horde BfA storyline has been to Blizzard’s detriment, and that hasn’t stopped them. And Blizzard clearly hasn’t learned their lessons from Cataclysm, MoP, and A Little Patience, so I don’t put faith in them not repeating their same mistakes again.
One patch is already way more than what I would expect Blizzard to go with.
And Tyrande as the Night Warrior forgave Maiev, who also tried to kill Malfurion and murdered a lot of Tyrande’s subjects, so the Night Warrior isn’t blind to atonement.
People against faction homogeneity at least have Classic to go back to if that’s what they want to focus on.
As for how it would work, it could be like the Pandaren, but opposite. Horde and Alliance until level 120+, and then you unlock being able to play with the opposite faction.
The point is, there has been nothing to suggest the “political crisis” levels of “division” in the Alliance as was planned by the Horde. For all intents and purposes, the faction is still united. Especially in comparison to the Horde, whose whole war campaign quest chain is rapidly becoming about disobeying and inciting rebellion against your leader.
What if the faction subplot of the next expansion is the Night Elves and Worgen launching attacks against a Horde led by someone like Thrall or Baine, while Anduin tries to stop them?
That would be kind of cool, and finally a reversal of the faction dynamic we’ve had since Cataclysm.
You’re probably right. But, man, that would make almost no story sense. Why would you rebuild right next to the people who are more than likely going to sucker punch you again?
I just want the faction war to end for good because they never gonna actually make it something that satisfies most people. It should have remained a side plot for open world PVP and battlegrounds, not an all consuming story line.
Most people are satisfied. They’re only interested in either the PVP or the PVE awards and really couldn’t care less about the setup that leads to them.
I was under the impression Wyrmest Accord and Moonguard were the largest RP servers. Either way, from your perspective the rpers there are fine with the direction of the story?
I’m going to object on the basis of the leading question. What I said is that the vast majority of the players don’t give two spits about the story, or the RP, and I know quite a few rp’ers who’ve been ignoring the main line story since day one because they’re doing their own thing.
Your statement was about players. Not the tiny slice of them who are invested in lore focused rp.
When I say they can’t write the faction war in a way that satisfies most people, by most people I obviously meant people invested in the story… and we are on the story forum discussing, for the most part, the story.
Furthermore, you said this
By specifically speaking of roleplaying servers, I assumed you were speaking of role-players, which lead me to the questions I asked. Otherwise there was no need for you to specify the “most roleplaying of roleplaying servers”.
I do too, but depending on the groups they RP with, some basic facts about their character are gonna have to contend with what happens in the main story. If role-play a Forsaken that lived in the Undercity, well my RP can’t really ignore the fact the whole city got blown to smithereens and the people who inhabited it are refugees in Orgrimmar. If I just pretend that didn’t happen, most people I approach are gonna look at me funny.
Unless you’re level 110 or above, UnderCity and Darnassus still stand for you. Even if that’s not true unless the roleplaying story is particurlarly dependent on being in the Undercity, than it’s irrelevant. If my character is involved in a Stormwind plot, the fact that Teldrassil is a smoking ashheap isn’t going to be part of the story.