Before BFA goes away, I just wanted to say great job on BFA Paladin class design. To be honest, I’m not looking forward to the Shadowlands changes, and I realized that for the first time since Wrath, I actually am really enjoying all three specs of Paladin. I feel powerful, I feel the theme, and I enjoy the gameplay of each spec. Just wanted to say Kudos for a job well done.
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Keep in mind for Holy Glimmer was a happy accident. It was only after the player discovery of certain interactions with talents and stats that it became really good.
Shadowlands is a better representation of what the Blizzard paladin designers are like. Keep something the community likes but make it much weaker. Then on top of that remove the interactions that made it really strong such as Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger effecting Holy Shock and making Crusader Strike too expensive to lower Holy Shock as effectively using Crusader’s Might.
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I really felt that Classic design by having up to 3 seconds of downtime for more than half of the expansion.
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I’m guessing this is for holy right? because ret… the least I would say is a “thanks”.
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Everything feels “powerful” if you only do world quests. Can’t talk about the other specs but Bfa and Legion ret are awful.
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Which, to be fair, describes the vast majority of players. It’s easy to forgot here on the forums but most people are not raiders and spend 99% of their time doing nothing more strenuous than WQs and the occasional low level key.
Anyway, the problem is that a lot of the fun comes from temporary powers that are going away or being nerfed significantly in SL. Blizzard has spent the past few expansions leaning heavily on borrowed power, and while it’s nice that we get more toys over time that way, it also really sucks when they take them away again and make us start new expansions with empty toy boxes.
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I wouldn’t say that, I feel powerful in visions where my DMG is buffed greatly… LOL
Idk why…
Rey is in a great spot pvp wise and kit wise has plenty.
I’m loving it
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I find BFA ret infinetly better than Legion ret.
@Beno…Ret is scary again in PVP. Folks run away again. It’s pretty great.
And prot is soloing Nyalotha bosses…the current raid tier, solo’d by a prot paladin.
And I’ve never really been a healer, but I queue as stuff as holy all the time now because I find it so much fun.
YMMV of course. From what I’ve seen of paladin design so far, I’ll be rerolling Monk for the first time in Shadowlands. It’s kind of a bummer, because I’m having so much fun in any content I do on any spec on my Paladin. I think they deserve a pat on the back for that first.
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Ret legion in pvp was better because the meta was more turning around melee cleave. And Judgement automatically cleaving to one other person and divine storm whirling forward twice was making us way stronger into cleaving naturally.
We were also top damage in Nighthold due to Divine Hammer buff + the raid having decently high aoe. Lasted a single tier though.
Both expansion had some nice additions like Wake of Ashes 30sec, 5holy power, slow + a huge dot, but then nerfed in BFA. Judgement Cleaving to an additional target, Divine Storm advancing foward. Empyrian power was highly needed in BFA. Light’s Decree and Avenger’s Might are also nice additions. But to be honest both Legion and BFA design for the overall gameplay were terrible for Ret.
Crit is my highest simming stat at 13 worth of dps and decided to swap all my gems and enchant back to haste because I couldn’t deal with the 16% haste and awful 3sec downtime anymore and handicap myself by 3k dps while simming.
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My only concern with ret in pvp is we can do nothing… vs frost mages… of course fire is more popular but the trauma when I fight frost
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With the un-dispellable Freedom it’s not as bad, but Ret has always been weak against mages, historically. Now if you’re talking 1v1, I woulnd’t fight a mage 1v1 as a Ret lol. But in rated 3’s obviously you’ll have partners to help out. Of course that mage will probably be playing with a rogue, at which point, I miss…
Oh lord, do I miss this…
My biggest complaint playing Ret in arenas is that we just don't excel at really anything except burst, which can be good, but rets are easily countered without bubling. We are weakish against melee, weakish against casters. And while bubble is nice, the CD is FAR too long. should be 3 minutes baseline. And don't get me started on our absorb.. Oh boy.
I personally think Legion ret was more fun in pvp, although i do love the free Divine Storms of BFA, much needed IMO. I've always felt like ret was missing an attack... Like a good hitting *not overpowered but hurts* holy Builder, I wish Divine storm was that ability again.. Even though it wouldn't make sense from an AOE PVE stand point.
- Our mobility is low, and easily stoppable (counter play is good but seriously, 3 second “sprint”).
- We don’t bring an MS, so we rely on Dampeing + Wings. (not advocating for MS here by any means)
- Our sustained is just meh… Not asking to be overpowered, but seriously, can we have SOME sustained…
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I agree on the BFA Paladin class design, at least as far as Ret is concerned. I simply do not play Prot or Holy enough to be able to provide an educated opinion.
Legion Ret felt good in some ways and kept me entertained, but the focus on Crusade was a bummer. I like that in BFA I have been able to run Inquisition this whole time and be just fine. That was certainly NOT the case with Divine Purpose or Holy Wrath in Legion.
As for Shadowlands, I am actually looking forward to the class changes. For the most part, we’re getting a lot of stuff baseline. Sure the change to Word of Glory at the moment is a bit of a bummer, but that could just be a tuning issue.
I think we’re going to be very powerful, at least as Ret anyway, going forward into Shadowlands. A few talents may need adjusting, like Seraphim, given how the class works now compared to when that spell first entered the game, but overall I think we’re good. Not many changes were needed, so not many were added.
I’m wondering why they moved Empyrean Power to be triggered by Crusader Strike 
I love using Divine Purpose on my pally as I don’t do any competitive end game runs right now, getting like 5-6 back to back usable Divine Storms or TV’s is just AMAZING.
Now that they've changed it to proc of CS, I'm not sure how i feel about it. I honestly can't imagine playing ret again without it.. sad days.
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As a person who hasn’t liked ret since Legion rework I have less and less hope.
I wouldn’t even say that to be honest. Ret is slow, has just one AoE attack (besides the other one on 45 seconds cooldown). Farming on it is not as fun as previous expansions.
This as well. EP was the only azerite trait that somewhat redeemed the spec in BFA. It should really be baseline. I just hope that they will tune it so that it procs about as much as right now just off of Crusader Strike. Although it still feels better to know that every attack can proc it.
I feel like baseline stuff helps the other two specs more than ret. You can pretty much spec into SL ret right now in BFA. It’s holy and prot which get hammer of wrath for example, while ret just gets existing Azerite Trait as a talent.
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Pretty much. Ret going into shadowlands didn’t gain anything except blessing of Sac.
I had higher expectation. WoD seals since they are the exact same thing as poisons. Cata Sacred Shield. Mobility back because that’s how we’ve been for the past 10years? Aura Mastery granting immunity to silence and interrupts for 5sec on top of 30% magical damage reduction for the whole group. Exorcism. Art of War instant flash of light again? Final Verdict, 30sec 20yards hammer of justice, Repentance or Blinding Light baseline?
But we ended up staying the exact same. And I know Sanctified Wrath is a tuning issue, but it for sure won’t do as much damage as having x3 of Light’s Decree as on live.
I also agree on the change of Empyrian Power that only procs off crusader strike now. That is a pretty feel bad move. It should retain the same as it is right now.
Execution Sentence + Seraphim + Inquisition will be a terrible feelsbad gameplay unless they make all of them off the gcd or against each other on the same row. Or Seraphim has no holy power cost.
The Fire of Justice, Eye for an Eye, Healing Hands and Justicar’s Vengeance are all dead talents we should be looking at.
Holy Avenger has a way too long cooldown for what it does when it was 2min in Cata and MoP and also gave generators 20% additional damage. For a 3min cooldown it needs an additional effect. Either echo the spenders for x% of the effects or give better benefits. TV / DS could apply a dot for x% of the damage done. WoG could apply a shield or a hot. Exe Sentence could do more damage and increase the % of holy damage done on the target. Inquisition / Seraphim could have x% better benefits and last x% longer.
Divine Purpose could also use the same logic for Seraphim / Inqui.
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I loved MoP for that. There was always something more to everything. Not just “this” but “that” also. Or in WoD, you didn’t just get instant Flash of Light due to Selfless Healer, but it also healed more on allies, and if you got a kill in the last 8 seconds that gave honor or xp, it would 100% crit. That was a layering of effects that was fun to play with.
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Yeah. Having it only proc from Crusader Strike is really disappointing. Watching Empyrean Power and Divine Purpose proc themselves and each other over and over is one of the most fun things in the game right now.
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Except it doesn’t even feel good for that. Ret feels terrible in open world content. Prot just feels boring and wimpy (dmg output) though it is way out engaging than ret and I’d rather play prot.
Ret is probably one of the worst specs I have ever played. So basically, i don’t know what the OP is smoking.
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Ret in Legion with the far more punishing colossus smash window was far worse, imho. Compared to that, and yes, much later in the expansion with an essence button to press, more haste and more procs, ret is fun, sometimes frantic, and obliterates stuff again.
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