well its kinda 2 late for dat
they had templates in legion. but people cried about them so they removed them.
so good luck wit dat mane XDDDDDDD
i ought to necro the 7 trillion cry threads in legion about templates and how we hated them
people are funny with revisionist history
also, vendors
also also, classic
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Sorry, you are correct, I was assuming the company wasn’t run by a bunch of egotistical idiots who think they know what’s best for the game despite the countless posts and questions asked from the community that plays that aspect of the game. My mistake I should’ve known better!! 
Agreed. Why was pvp progression pruned from WoW anyway? Did they ever even give us an explanation. I remember it was fun to grind for your honor pvp gear. From there you could push arena rating for gladiator gear. After that, you could use your conquest points to UPGRADE that glad gear. What exactly was wrong with that system.
I agree I definitely worded that weakly. It’s not about my degree of trust, or the vocal minority’s community’s degree of trust, or blizzards overall perceived level of debated incompetency. I’m just re-pointing out that the concept that templates bring minimal variables that are easier to balance is false. Even if doing frequent weekly changes numbers only balancing has no soul/flavor to it and while it can sometimes even out even out winrates it comes at a cost of creating artificial barriers it doesn’t work for differentiating players. Compared to in extreme circumstances changing how individual abilities themselves function in a pvp capacity that doesn’t effect PvE and tweaking individual abilities throughout the expansion instead of lazy primary stat changes or overall flat damage percentages.
It’s ironic because templates actually give them more work that they don’t want to do balance wise. It tangles things up since they rarely if ever rework abilities and talents between expansions. Raw number changes make PvP more PvE styled like the last 2 expansions have already been. Player agency, quality of life (consistency), risk vs reward rewarding proactive plays over reactive plays, interactivity (counterplay), and depth should be the forefront of any game design. Regardless of if the old way isn’t coming back it doesn’t change the fact that it’s more involved and better than a lazy bandaid.
Having the core number balance of the game coming from PvE (despite not being clean translation to pvp) or being properly balanced in its own content currently is still a much more organized framework. Having the devs be more committed to balancing the raw numbers through PvE, even if it’s google translate tier overlap with PvP balance still makes a more consistently number tuned game where everyone can be OP damage/healing wise. While also leaving the devs with room to balance pvp separately without hurting the PvE crowd by tweaking mobility, cds, cc, htalents/glyphs, pvp trinkets, set bonuses, different stat priorities. As opposed to modern expansion comps where numbers balancing is so off the rails from scaling, psuedo templates, specs being azerite trait gimmicks that are nerfed in half, and how the same essence doing the same exact thing can be more opportunity cost useful on a better raw number classes making comp strength be entirely based on least counterplay and what is tanky/does more damage wins on mana.
Using the same framework for PvE vs PvP with a hybrid approach tweaking the templates via individual abilities and mobility in similar way doesn’t work. It’s unorganized, over complicated for their dream casual audience, more prone to bias within community influence if it were ever listened to, removes player choice for different playstyles with different stats like defensive versatility vs more haste for faster gameplay, is only a bandaid for class design issues, over-complicates the balancing process itself by having to backtrack or double down on incorrect changes, and leaves room for error when templates aren’t thought of when making followup separate changes for PvE.
Arena is already way past life support and begging for recycled sewer water isn’t the answer. Personally i’m just hoping blizzard is willing to make a wrath server even though splitting the game into 4 different wows is dangerous. Since they said they’d look into tbc/wrath if classic went well. I want to see arena succeed and the idea of living in an alternate timeline where a Non MMO 3v3 arena PvP style game emerged and got popular like how Dota came from WC3 would have been a dream come true. Dreams aside, without radical (un)change a lot of the arena crowd getting older are going to continuously get more bitter than they already are to the point that it will outweigh their passion and years of investment until they aren’t even going to be willing to play it if it is/was making them money. The last few expansions I’ve already enjoyed the interactions streaming more than the gameplay itself. It was an outlet to be passionate about something I care about even when I did get on rants and was disappointed by the games missed potential.
As much as I like change and don’t want to play the same expansion forever wrath/mop were the widely received best arena expansions even though no expansion has ever been perfect, but those were the widely considered most fun class designs outside of outliers. The community needs a Super Smash Brother’s Melee to identify and regroup and rebuild a community around like how classic brought people to resub. Followed by trying to transition past successes into a modern expansion instead of making legion 3 like how Smash Ultimate’s effort in attempting to go back to its root’s even if wasn’t recreatable made it an unarguably better game than smash4 (sorry, but its the most close metaphor I could think of). Honestly, I think a mass transition to wrath AT would have happened years ago despite NA to EU ping issues, pay to win antics from creators, lack of event support from blizzard themselves, but the final nail was twitch understandably being against streaming private servers.
That being said, when you couple that with all the well received innovations that came years ago from the pvp community that blizzard never took notice of out of spite. Such as, the AT crystal for 2 teams to skip waiting 1 minute in the starting room, a rudimentary separated soloq, duel areas where your cds reset vs the dead on arrival brawler’s guild, the pruning of the old wow armory that had arena match history, to the failure of a spectator client that regressed from the MoP’s amazing community made version (from russia?) into the current 6 cds and flames vs shields design. When there are better ways to make the game more exciting/simple to watch while still having depth. Such as, the pacing of the game itself not being turn based cooldowncraft, individual player povs, and adding personality to teams/comp specializations rather than world of 4man roster alt win the blind pick take turns countercomping each otherfest.
It definitely starts getting depressing that people can let themselves be so passionate about something for 10-15 years that they beg for the wrong solution intentionally out of desperation knowing the correct solution would never be listened to.
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i don’t agree with this but what i said wasn’t really an invitation for you to further argue, i just want to help people who might have missed it notice that you posted essentially nothing for no reason visible to me except that disagreeing with people who liked some parts of the game during an expac you played all of while complaining constantly makes you feel big
Nah. Templates we’re pretty bad also, now that i think about it. Honesty, bring back gear progression. Allow us to upgrade are gear through grinding conquest or something. Having to gear up through mythic+ just to participate in pvp, is a really awful design.
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My post was above his post initially even though we are in quote-ception.
The main point is that maybe last tier a template move could have slowed down the bleeding as a temporary bandage till next expansion and I wouldn’t have disagreed. Better something than nothing. Right now though after this 9 month drought of pvp meta neglect + classic hurricane, it’s not nearly enough to bring enough people back, it’s not even the least they could do.
If the next expansion isn’t wrath/mop tier with them having learned something from classic I don’t think arena will make it. The AWC is already pretty close to getting heroes of the storm’ed pretty soon I imagine.
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remember in wod when half the specs i played were using crafted rings because we added vers to the game but didn’t add it to pvp rings, that was nice
templates would be good if the player had some sort of control over their stats, was great in legion when i was playing specs that would benefit from higher vers or haste or etc and i had no control over it while being a tier b spec
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if the “correct” solution is impossible to hope for, then either the people doing the hoping are wrong to be so pessimistic(which doesn’t seem to be what you’re saying) or the “wrong” solution isn’t wrong by virtue of being the best bandaid that remains realistic
you wrote a whole lot of other stuff that i’m gonna assume you saved in case they ever had another “top players pvp summit” and you got invited this time, but the words you’re using in this tidbit here make it likely that the rest of it whiffs too
Nope typed it all out within 20minutes counting the 10 edits or so of just trying to clean it up.
Nowhere near as big as my multiple maxed out post level feedbacks for mop/wod/legion betas that were actually organized and not on a whim. It’s relaxing for me, like venting.
Neither are realistic and hoping while being a realist doesn’t mean pessimism at the end of the day you are still hoping. It’s just that hope is subjective.
Hoping for the “wrong” solution intentionally is being a defeatist. If your hoping for a miracle it might as well be the best one you believe in.
so you are saying that
wow, 3 edits in the quest to erase the meaning from words
whether or not you feel like trying to muddy it further, what we’re talking about is whether it’s realistic to ask that they give back a system 1 expansion old(i think it is, you seem to be saying that it isn’t) and whether it’s less or more realistic to ask that they give back a system 2 expansions old that predates most of the current gearing system(i think this is meaningfully less likely than templates making a comeback)
this is what people who are capable of accepting it call a difference of opinion, where no matter how hard you click your heels together you can’t actually be more correct than anybody else in guessing blizzard’s design goals
So your saying a system that worked for arena from 2007 (tbc) → 2016 (legion release) 9 year old system that worked in many different versions before fixing what wasn’t broken has less synergy with the failed 3 year wf/tf experiment?
There are plenty of hybrid ways they can redo mop/wod level of quality gearing even if toxic wf/tf systems were mandatory that aren’t the nuclear legion option. Such as:
- Disabling gems / making them guaranteed / higher chance of proc-ing gem / lower stats on gems.
- Disabling equip/on use non pvp items.
- Set bonus on pvp trinkets.
- Allowing you to spend marks of honor on chosen stat challenger pieces of gear. Giving a guaranteed rating based trophy every week in addition to your rng loot that you can spend on the marks of honor gear/weekly conquest reward on.
- Mop conquest upgrading system. With targeted challenger marks of honor pieces.
- Adding a PvP styled residium for targeting PvP azerite. Though I really pray azerite is in no way shape or form in next expansion. Way 2 hard to balance, and shared traits are too homogenized took way too long for defensive traits to get nerfed.
- Making RNG gearing more targetable from outside sources (m+ box loot table the last key you ran that week).
- Lowering the max potential of a wf/tf while also raising the proc rate of wf/tf.
- wod ilvl scaling every pvp piece base ilvl lowered and guarenteed raised in pvp (basically every pvp item titanforged in pvp)
*Not alternating loot tables season to season (vers mastery ring possible this season not last season etc).
*Going back to physical CC trinket as an item.
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no. why are you reading so poorly? i’m saying i think they, the company that has a track record of making moves forward or sideways much more often than backward, are more likely to give back templates, which are less old, and existed in cohesion with a gearing system similar to the one we have now, than they are to give back vendors, which is older and coexisted with a pve gearing system that didn’t include keystones.
you call the wf/tf system a failure, but blizzard by all accounts doesn’t think it is. they wouldn’t have swollen its relevance continuously over the past 6 years if they did.
the random -forge system is a throne of thunder addition. that’s march 5 2013. it’s presently 2019, 6 months and 2 days past march. lol
the rest of your suggestion box filler might well be fine, but for the nth time i don’t have any interest in your wishlist. the simple question of is x more likely than y, knowing blizzard’s track record, remains. i think it is, you don’t, you apparently WILL keep trying to be more right in that unprovable opinion than you think i am. whatever lol
Likelyhood for both is low and probably not that far apart even though impossible to measure without just making up numbers.
If it’s in faith’s hands why not hope for the best option instead of picking between a hypothetical 1% chance and a 5% chance.
Part of feedback if it were compiled from credible sources and ever used is meant to be devil’s advocate on which each subjective person feels. Not an entertainment guessing game of probability. If that were the case i’d be lobbying for disc nerfs since that’s predictable. 
Also thunderforging was capped at a certain ilvl not a range, didn’t have layered gem rng ontop of it and wasn’t apart of the pvp gearing experience.
*The “shopping list” wasn’t meant for all of the above, but even 3 of those went in it’d cut the gear system frustrations down by over half if spinning the toxic slot machine 100 times gearing from multiple sources got you 80% bis. Instead of wasting gems/titanforges on wrong stat items and maybe getting 1-2 almost bis pieces across the entire season.
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it’s very rose colored glasses rogue player to have a bad grip on math like that, tbh
the best gameplay is gameplay where if you play correctly there’s no chance of the enemy doing anything, 100% proactive 0% gameplay
lol
sure, but those are changes pve has endured as well as pvp. templates uniquely applied to pvp without demanding any pve changes-they have changed pve from mop to now, and to give back templates would require no reworking of that while giving back vendors would
like, look at the gear that’s important right now. maledict and maybe 1 azerite slot per spec are the only bis pieces that even can come from pvp in its rng state. they could put a vendor in tonight that sells every piece with notorious gladiator in its name for 5 copper a pop and the best geared people on ladder by a mile would still be wearing gear from keystones and raid
Honnestly, templates with stat sliders AND being able to use pvp trinkets (and only pvp trinkets) would probably be on par with WoD gearing.
Would be very very alt friendly too. Due to this probably being one of the most alt unfriendly expansions ever iv basically benched all my alts just due to the shear amount of time id have to put into them just to keep them competetive from a gearing standpoint.
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Enjoyed being able to get right into PvP with an alt during Legion, about the only thing I liked from that expansion.
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Not going to lie, templates would be fantastic right now so that i can just play classic and log on to retail only to queue. Would almost make bfa a side game exclusively for arena.
…maybe they should just make arena a side game, scrap gear and essences and just allow people to manually customise their character.
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Yeah I miss reforging too. The add-on we all downloaded. And clicked a button and it maximized everything for you. It was so in depth and definately gave you a sweet false sense of customization.
Templates promoted skill > gear.
The people hating templates probably loves the PvE mega items of death too.
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