Most Horde deaths were done along with Night Elf deaths.
The only time this was not the case was when Tyrande wiped out a Horde base which was not even in the Hundreds!
Proper balance requires a Thousand for Teldrassil’s Thousand without adding more Night Elves to the number of fallen.
Both sides suffered enough if you ask me. Killing this amount because X killed that amount, is just going to force the horde into a corner again and force them to take more drastic measures.
It’s a loose loose situation for both sides.
I don’t like this mindset in the sense that it seems like such a copout for Horde. It’s like the saying, “an eye for an eye only leaves both sides blind”
That’s easy for the Horde to say when they still have both eyes intact. Yes they lost Saurfang and Sylvanas and were villain batted which no one asked for, but the Alliance has suffered far more damage to their faction vs the Horde just losing leaders.
The Alliance at this point is just being written to be complete chumps and incompetent like they are sitting there going, “herp derp the Horde won’t genocide us again like they did twice within the span of 4 years. Four times in the span of 34 years if you count them originally coming through the Dark Portal. But it’s fine! herp derp!”
This is the problem with the game being a two faction system. Realistically, if this was a single player game the Horde would have been completely dismantled, the races separated and made sure to never be allowed to regroup again. But because the Horde is a playable faction they get to wreck the Alliance and get away with it unpunished. (Again, I know Horde players hate this because they don’t want to be villain batted, and they shouldn’t be forced to deal with that, but it is very annoying as an Alliance player being made to look like a chump who has to just accept that the Horde “has changed”.)
Personally I say the Horde should be willingly handing over the thousand most guilty of their Orc ranks(including those who partook in manning the cannons and fanning the flames) to the Alliance executioners thus purging the Horde of any vileness it retains.
I hate it is as much as you and every other worgen/night elf fan or alliance fan in general. I want what you want, to have that Awesome moment and actually feel GOOD about playing the race I feel in love with 10+ yrs ago.
Personally? I agree. If the horde is truely serious about turning over a new leaf, they should hand over those responsible for Teldrassil to the Alliance and start exiling the more violent and extreme members.
From a logical standpoint, sure. But it’s a 2- faction game so they’re going to have to settle. Nobody wins.
No offense man, but I feel like you either didn’t finish reading his post, or woefully misinterpreted it. Valaraad wasn’t saying that it’s what should happen, he’s saying the poor decisions of the writing has lead to this being the logical outcome, and that it’s bad for the game, and isn’t fun for the Alliance.
Which I agreed with. It all goes back to crappy writing.
It’s not fun for either side really. The horde player base is tired of being villian batted and their faction commititng atrocities every other expac and the alliance player base is tired because we never get to fully retiliate and break the horde so bad that they won’t ever think of doing something like the burning.
To be fair, I don’t think the Horde playerbase doesn’t like to be villain-batted considering how many times I’ve seen these same players talk about how much they love the ‘grittiness’ and bad-boy mentality inherent to the Horde.
I think many Horde LIKE being the villains, especially considering how hard they pushed for the developers to allow them to choose to keep following Sylvanas to the very end and pretty much spying on their fellow Horde. I just think they don’t like suffering the consequences for it.
If this was Warhammer, that’d be fine because there are clear lines of good and evil for the factions with enough moral ambiguity on both sides to let players be as gritty as they want without fully committing to one side or the other.
But in WoW there are consequences for going overboard on being bad, frankly the Horde players who indulged in this mindset are the first who should have seen this coming. They LIKED the increasingly questionable path Sylvanas led the Horde down, they just didn’t want to accept where it would inevitably lead.
Gonna have to stop you there homeslice.
There is an a difference between liking the savage, tough, hardcore Horde, and liking being the villains.
The savage Horde was supposed to have the qualities that while they love a good battle and are tough as nails, but these are seen and treated as good traits to have and you are treated as being a heroic character.
Where being the villain has always been presented as being bad. What you are doing is not being seen, in the narrative or portrayal as positive heroic things. You are being made to feel bad and the game outright tells you “look at this bad thing you are doing. Don’t you feel bad. Shame. Shame”
Here’s the thing, homeslice, the Horde are the villains. That’s the problem. The Horde should be the villains. They’re the villains for the Alliance. They’re not written as the villains, because Blizzard is incompetent, but the idea that some force could annihilate your people three, four, five times over, and not the be the villain, is a joke. Which is just the way Blizzard writes it.
If Blizzard was going to make the Horde the villains, then that needed to happen fifteen years ago. It did not.
Horde players, by and large, didn’t sign up to be the villains.
I hate to break it to you, but you can be the villain in someone else’s story and the hero of your own. But that requires being able to think in more than one headspace, which Blizzard cannot, or will not, do.
You can write a Horde that does whatever the heck it likes, for whatever reasons it likes, and write an Alliance that responds in ways actual people respond. Like, when entire cities disappear under chemical weapons, real people, who have real thoughts, don’t go ‘oh, well that’s unfortunate, I guess they still want peace’. You go ‘oh, crap, maybe they need to, I don’t know, pay for that’.
You’re not “breaking” anything to me, brohan.
That formulation only works if both sides are written to be the villains for each other’s stories. You can’t have a Horde that’s the villains to the Alliance and not vice versa.
Malfurion was against it, but because he thought it was arrogant, not because Fandral planned to use any Old God methods. As Ferlion covered, what we found out later was that Fandral grafted a branch of Xavius’ tree-imprisoned body to Teldrassil and that’s what was causing Teldrassil’s corruption, but it had nothing to do with Teldrassil’s size.
Separate from anything else, I love your new character customization, Ferlion.
Basically, that whole argument that “The Horde ARE the villains to the Alliance” only works if the Alliance was also written as the villains of the Horde. Which they are, rather consistently, are not. If anything the Alliance has been written as the only reason the Horde is still around by virtue of deciding to NOT wipe them out after an expansion of villain batting.
So no. The Horde was not supposed to be the dick dasterdly villains of the WoW story. That was clearly not the intention when they were made in vanilla. Unfortunately Blizzard has it in their heads that the Horde has to constantly “find itself” by being beaten with the villain bat and then go through this journey or discovery where they “learn” the lesson they’ve already learned.
EDIT: Let me put it a simple way.
If the intention was for the Horde to be the evil faction, they wouldn’t get a “find yourself storyline”. They’d just be evil doing evil things.
You’ve managed to back into the answer. If the Alliance was the Horde villain, the Horde wouldn’t have to keep whinging about what the Horde is. They’d know: they’re allied because the Alliance is after them. Now, the Alliance would be justified in being after them, just like the Horde would be justified in defending themselves.
In my opinion, there is (or should be) a difference between antagonist and a villain. Although I’m not a fan of the faction war in the first place, if one HAS to happen, it should have just been opposing ideologies or stuff where each side can feel like they’re justified in fighting.
But the horde’s been more than antagonists. They’ve become outright villains twice in a row in WoW, when their whole shtick was supposed to be them growing to be more than that after already going through at least one relapse moment in Warcraft 3.