The core of the trinity is a rock paper scissors reliance on your fellow player. Each player covers the other. When you give one role the ability to negate another, you give rise to a mentality that breaks apart the cohesion of group play. Even games that try to pretend like this isnt the issue by not having a trinity system, eventually relent and institute a trinity style system.
Blizzard has allowed this sort of behavior to go on for far too long with their incompetence at properly balancing the game in the loosest of sense of the word.
Anyone who argues against this is simply trying to keep the status quo because thats what benefits them the most and no one wants to lose their honey jar. For the health of the game, a lot of things need to change, some of which will never happen sadly. WoW will hobble along as it always has.
You’re completely right and I don’t argue against it. But here is the thing: Tanks don’t negate any other role. Tanks can not solo a keystone appropriate to their itemlevel and skill in time. And making an appropriate keystone in time is the goal of a keystone.
Removal of responsibility makes things easier. If someone is responsible for less, they need to do less.
If tanks had no CC, then CC is not a concern of theirs. It would be even easier to play.
You’re completely right and I don’t argue against it. But here is the thing: Tanks don’t negate any other role. Tanks can not solo a keystone appropriate to their itemlevel and skill in time. And making an appropriate keystone in time is the goal of a keystone.
And given that’s the case, what’s wrong with more dependence on other roles?
Their current function is god held back by dps requirements. They don’t need people.
If tanks need healers (just like everyone else does) what’s the downside? If healer is bad, you’re still not finishing,
We can also pretend DPS is necessary on the same note, and that tank can’t solo entire bosses.
And again, they do already in any challenging content.
Oh yeah…make tanking really boring…good idea. It will be a lot of fun, when we’re basically little puppets spotting mobs, while (hopefully) being filled up the healer, waiting for the mobs to die.
Of course, if you put somebody with complete Mythic Raid equip in a +5, they’ll be able to do a lot alone, but that is to be expected, because they outgear it by a lot.
My max level dungeons were not high this season 13 is top I think,
my self healing would not have kept me alive, same for DPS in those groups of randoms.
So it is alreayd working as expected?
Becuase I can solo normals by picking mobs from start to finish, but that nerf is not going to change that, is it.
No, not really. You aren’t going to heal a blood dk. But a monk maybe.
Then tanks are also liable to be one shot.
Sure there’s a narrow band of failure where healers can help.
Oh yeah…make tanking really boring…good idea. It will be a lot of fun, when we’re basically little puppets spotting mobs, while (hopefully) being filled up the healer, waiting for the mobs to die.
But see, some people want things to be easy.
Kalaen wants healing to remain easy because apparently having healers be responsible for failure is too much.
And who’s to say, some people don’t want tanks to be easier to play? It’s intimidating and one of the least played roles.
If anyone can succeed, isn’t that better?
Of course, if people care about the gameplay of such role, not really. But the gameplay of the role is so divorced from what it was, which is tanking, not an invulnerable juggernaut.
For healers to have fun, you need to be able to die.
There is a fine line between making something easier and removing things to make it boring. You can make gameplay easier without making it boring.
Why should everybody succeed without putting an effort in. You also can’t be a good DD without putting an effort in. Also, if you remove i.e. my interrupts, what do I use in solo content?
If you want more people to tank, don’t make leveling one up harder. And don’t make tanking boring by basically remove everything they have to do.
Oh and don’t try to sell me crap and call it chocolate.
Oh course tanks want to be demigods that can solo an instance, but the problem with that is that leads to bad tanks who got a little bit of gear trying to live out thier MDI fantasy in a pug group constantly killing the whole group. There needs to be a breaking point for tanks where they can’t just keep pulling more, and that point needs to come before the point the rest of the group is dead.
Bullcrap. Tanks don’t want that more than any other spec.
You will find people doing stupid things in every spec. Should we remove all range attacks from DDs now, because they a lot of them think they know what the grou can handle and then kill the group by using their range attacks to pull another one to two groups?
That is btw. happening way more often than some idiot tanks pulling half of the dungeon.
It’s always the tanks everybody craps on. But hey, maybe we’ll get more healers then when everybody complains about them because they did let the tank die again in TWW…oh wait.
This applies to dps also, nobody enjoys dying a slow death with nothing they can do to stop it because the healer wasn’t attentive enough but the “everyone can heal themselves” era led to an uptick in healers being expected to do something useful with all their newfound downtime, and we can’t have that because then the healers complain so now we’re shifting back to healers being made to do all the healing.
Tanks were originally a “support” role in pretty much every RPG setting. They were never designed to be “Solo Bruisers”… until they were.
Solo Bruisers are more fun to play in solo play or unorganized group play because you’re not so desperately reliant on your teammates. It’s like having a table-top RPG party comprised of entirely support characters vs. a different party comprised of entirely “solo-friendly” characters.
A bunch of solo-friendly characters playing together aren’t really playing together… they’re more-so competing to try and do the same things better than everyone else in the party. Overall, it’s genuinely less fun.
However, I WOULD advocate for Tanks and Healers to have special buffs which activate outside of a raid or party group which make soloing significantly more tolerable. For example, if Tanks had the “Vengeance” mechanic available to them while soloing, that’d be pretty awesome.
The group can’t and as a tank I can handle it better than the others, but also not as much as some people try to make it look like.
So DD is bored, pulls => group dies. Happens way more often than "tank pulls half the dungeon => group dies
Trollolol? No. Tank leads the group, tank has to check make a judgement on how much the group can handle. DDs shouldn’t pull, that is the tanks job.
If a DD is pulling without being told to, he is a bad DD, same as a tank who does pull way too much no matter what is a bad tank.
And it is not the tanks fault if somebody dies, if a DD decides to add more groups on purpose.
This thread really shows how much an ego tanks have these days. I’m sure pathing is so hard when you just use an addon and use a route someone created for you.
You’ll usually hit that when those tanks are doing content appropriate for their gear and skil level. The lions share of the complaints come from queued content where the tank is far above that mark.
You could look at some kind of downscaling for queues, but I imagine you’d also kill participation in them.
Alternatively, remove any reason for geared players to queue up for LFD/LFR, but you’ll still blow up queue times.
