Tank/Healer changes from TWW Beta -> TWW Live - were they a success or failure?

As the title states, I’m keen to get some discussion going around the changes that were made towards the tail end of the TWW expansion beta, and if those changes that were intended to address the “fun” and “difficulty” of tanks/healers were a success, or failure.

I want to point out, that the original thread for these changes was removed and I can’t seem to find a reference to them, so I’m going to quote what was stated:

Tank durability can cause some other problems as well, especially in challenging endgame content, that we want to work toward improving.

  • Enemy damage has increased to challenge tanks, but if it’s increased too much, it gets spiky and puts tanks in significant danger if their defenses ever drop. This can lead to tanks getting killed rapidly, seemingly out of nowhere. We feel this is unsatisfying and would prefer tank damage to generally be evenly distributed, but still threatening over time.

  • If tanks are not threatened enough, then the most challenging part of endgame content can become keeping DPS and healers alive, often against high burst damage. Making tank survival a more involving element of group gameplay could give us some freedom to ease up on the threat to other group members.

To address the above, we’re making reductions to tank durability and self-healing. This will allow us to smooth out the damage tanks and parties take while retaining the challenge of keeping them alive over time. We’ll take those changes into account in encounter tuning as well.

Tanks will take more damage overall, but shouldn’t die significantly more often.

To increase the overall damage tanks take and their reliance on healers, we’re primarily increasing the percentage of damage they take, after mitigation, from steady damage sources like physical attacks. We’re making fewer reductions to each class’s defenses against burst damage or other threats that are currently most likely to be lethal to them. Encounters will be tuned with this in mind so the character of tank damage changes, but the lethality of it doesn’t significantly increase.

Healer gameplay should not be dominated by tank healing.

Healers play a critical role, and keeping tanks alive is part of what they bring to the table. However, healers contribute to the success of groups in many ways, especially in dungeons. They sustain the group, dispel harmful effects, and respond to burst damage, all while doing mechanics. Tank healing should not demand so much that it interferes with their other roles. It may take some iteration to get the balance right on this, where healers feel essential to tank survival but with their attention not overly demanded by it.

Tank gameplay should not significantly change or require actions like kiting to survive.

We’re happy that more players are enjoying playing tanks with their friends and in pick-up groups. There are a lot of demands on tanks, such as learning M+ routes, leading groups, and knowing what trash abilities are particularly dangerous. The gameplay of standing toe-to-toe with groups of enemies and the tactics you’ve learned to survive should continue to be effective.

What are your thoughts? Were these changes a success, a failure, or both?

Success. Tanks aren’t immortal gods for the most part anymore.

Won’t see them solo a boss from full to dead outside of very rare exceptions.

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Some tanks can still do this.

I noticed almost no difference. I was expecting a major health boost over dps so tanks would die slower but the game feels just as bursty as before.

I feel like the biggest problem with tank survivability right now is just white swing damage being so high. There are a lot of tank busters too, but I see way more tanks flopping to auto attacks than bosses and I definitely struggle more on trash with my bdk.

I haven’t really noticed a difference so far up to 10s and 11s. If there wasn’t a blue post and the forums I probably wouldn’t even know anything changed.

Maybe in higher keys it’s more pronounced.

Made me detest the role and I see much less tanks in the queues as well.
Formerly I was ok with either dps/tank role, now I avoid tanking whenever possible. Its just no longer fun at all to be so dependent on heals, especially in pug environment.
At this point why not play a dps then and at least do great dmg?

The rift between the effort required for playing a dps vs a tank was never ever this big.
They have fixed something that was not broken to begin with.

Hahaha
You think? The same players who triggered this kneejerk reaction from blizzard (some randos doing some 25 or higher key without heal…) will still do the exact same thing regardless, especially by season 3/4 (where there is a notable powercreep usually).

Its totally different question that outside of rare exceptions, not even guild groups will likely ever be able to reproduce those runs, let alone pugs, just like they were not able to in DF.

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I just started playing BDK after mainly playing rsham this season. My experience this season is only 10s with a couple 11s, and I havent noticed any differences between this season and DF (DF season 1 was harder). I was doing 8s at around the 585-590 range on my BDK, and started 10s a couple days later. They aren’t perfect, but me playing an off-meta tank that I barely know how to play able to walk into 10s first week and time them seems like they missed the mark. Damage to the party seems almost exactly the same, with less one shots then previous seasons. I havent tried pushing 12s though, which would be roughly where i generally finish seasons so my opinion may change.

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Even those no-healer runs have classes that can heal the tank.

I got through a +10 GB on my 615 ilvl bdk but it was a struggle. On my 620 brewmaster I feel like I breeze through.

I do find I get clapped by things on my bdk that I don’t on other tanks.

But I’m not sure if it’s gear, stats(currently crit/mastery), or if it’s just how blood is now.

Same. I don’t find I die slower and I feel just as one shottable as before.

Giant failure. Literally every run I think about this patch note you quoted and laugh at how unfinished the beginning of this design change was. Because that’s what this really was, a first pass to an idea that had something solid behind it, but never came to fruition. The main issue with this and their tuning pass is that they don’t know where to test the tuning because we go from being immortal in heroics, and then get vaporized in higher keys, yet we always have the dmg to overcome everything.

This is because with upgrades we get a lot more throughput than survivability. Yet key lvls increase mob hp and dmg at the same rate. This is called UNBALANCED. If M+ was well made, instead of 10% hp and dmg per key lvl, mobs would get 10% hp and 4% dmg (for example). And M+ would be like speed running, where the focus would be on killing fast, not timing as a result of not dying.

Why would that be better? Because trying to pump is A MILLION TIMES more fun than trying to survive, for literally everyone. Dmg profile of the game should also be completely changed to be more about constant small dmg to keep halers busy because most of them don’t want to dps, they play a healer to heal, logical. All self healing and most defensives should be DELETED from all specs except tanks, healers should be necessary otherwise everyone should die from constant unavoidable dmg. The game does not require more dmg than this, no one likes the heart attack surprise 99% nuke demanded instant healer attention to heal this back in half a second before the next random nuke.

Dying should 100% be the result of bad healer or actualy mechanical mistakes, all unavoidable dmg should be borderline non lethal, all avoidable dmg should be almost one shot and everyone should have the time to react to dmg, specially the tank. Using wall at full HP because of the uncommunicated potential of being one shot the first second into the pull is bad design, tanks should be able to take dmg for several seconds to assess if they should use a big defensive or not, it should not be pre-cast ever. Even tank busters, the use of defensives on those should NEVER be a question of life and death, it should be to alleviate the pressure on the healer with of course the understanding that if you’re already low HP it makes logical sense to use a defensive that goes withou saying.

Blizzard’s obsession with making tanks different in the way they mitigate is causing issues with survivability and healing, Dks don’t need to outheal healers to be fun, monks are also often outhealing healers, none of that needs to happen, it’s okay if these tanks take less dmg and heal less, that will also stop making them the constantly worst tanks for a third year in a row.

The only thing they did was was " Tank gameplay should not significantly change or require actions like kiting to survive." and in that there wasn’t much work done since that wasn’t a thing in DF, and they made many MELEE ability still hit the tank from 40 yards away if the cast started, like the magma golem and the orcs with the fire dot nuke tank buster.

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Azure vaults called… or any dungeon where the timer was a factor.

Oh, I remember: Neltharus. (pre-chains.)

Or just a Prot pally. There was a 15 NW timed with Prot pally and 4 dps.

yes, with classes that can heal the tank.

Well, the power of the Aug most likely carried a lot of the mitigation and healer coverage. The Ret and Prot paladin certainly did the actual healing.
That I agree with. The DK and Warrior are both tanky.