In my quest of deciding a class to play I decided to research paladins as a possible alternative to a priest for a healing spot in raids.
My paladin experience/understanding is basically non existent. But looking over their talent calculator does have me intrigued. I’ve read over and over that they are “the best 5 man dungeon tanks” and it seems like I’d potentially be able to do so using the standard raiding holy spec? Am I just plain mistaken?
Is a holy paladin 33/18/0 spec a viable or even possibly “the best” 5 man dungeon tank. Thanks!
Paladins are more desirable that Priests for raiding content (albeit you’ll still need Priests in your comp).
Edit: Dungeons i’m not too sure about, I only ever played Hpal in vanilla raid content, didn’t bother in dungeons.
In short, a Paladin will take more management/skill to play effectively where as a Priest will be easier to maintain but won’t provide as much utility to the raid.
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If you have a disciplined group that understand threat mechanics, a prot pally can work. You do not have a taunt or any snap threat ability and you will run oom very quickly. You do have great aoe threat but again, if folks in your group are not aware of their threat, then you will be running around trying to pull mobs off of people. In my experience, prot pallies are the worst 5-man group tank due to these issues. You can succeed but it will be difficult.
As far as the 33/18/0 spec, no you will not be an effective tank. Can you make it work? Yes, but you will be very squishy and you will be threat limited due to lack of prot tree talents like holy shield and rec.
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They can tank 5-mans but they’re definitely not as good as warriors or bear tanks.
The biggest problem they have is going oom since they are the only mana-based tank, but not having a taunt is a problem as well.
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They can be 5 man tanks but I’ve never seen evidence of them being the best. Druids are probably better for 5 man’s and warrior is hands down the raid tank.
Priest will level faster but be squishier. I feel like priest is more fun in PvP due to mind control and levitate.
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If you’re planning to raid, save yourself the suffering and roll a different class, because you will HATE buffing everyone…
- Every single player seems to want something different and complains nonstop about their particular buff.
- They won’t hesitate in insulting you if you gave them Kings when they wanted Salv.
- You’ll go nuts coordinating with other Paladins lacking Pally Power, which is basically mandatory.
- Forgot reagents? Kill yourself.
- Don’t even dare to let a player go unbuffed for more than three seconds, because the world may end.
I played Paladin forever but I swear I’m not going to roll one in Classic just because the whole buffing drama, it’s nothing but pain.
On the other hand, if you’re not planning in raiding, then you’ll have fun. While not the fastest class to level, it has plenty of tools for survival, but the combat is quite boring. Refer to this post from ancient times to understand better the Paladin DPS:
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We’ll I guess my hopes of being a boss healing in raids and then tanking strat live for righteous orbs in my off time with the same spec was just too good to be true. Thanks guys.
The only things you’re missing by only putting 20 points in holy is 5% crit and a guarantee 2min crit (and an instant mana inefficient heal). I’m pretty sure you can run 20/31/0 and do both. I’m actually considering doing that myself.
The problem with not having that crit is crit is the number one secondary stat for holy pallies, especially for raiding. Without crit, you will need to consume to hell and back to keep your mana up during long fights. Personally, I take crit wherever I can get it on gear and it has served me very well through AQ and into Naxx. I even use Brilliant Wizard Oil instead of Mana Oil for that sweet sweet crit.
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Agreed you definitely need crit as a Holy Pally. It’s sort of essential so a 5% crit talent is a no brainer. And at that point you’re 30 points in and I personally see a lot of uses for Holy Shock so I’d take that as well.
Nope. You’re on the money. Prot Paladins are great for 5 mans especially for AoE tanking. I’ve played with more prot paladins in the Classic Beta than warriors. You don’t even have to drink every pull like most people think.
Sure is. You could drop 3 points in holy and go 21 in prot. Holy Shock isn’t super mandatory for holy healing due to its long CD and hefty mana cost.
I’d say go 30 holy 21 prot and all you’d need is to swap gear to Raid heal and 5 man tank without respeccing all the time.
This would also give you the niche of being the Holy Paladin with Blessing of Sanctuary for the raid.
I disagree. 30/21/0 is my current spec and it is a great raid healing spec with the added benefit of providing BoS to the raid but… I cannot tank 5 man dungeons worth a darn unless it is a very very disciplined smart group and still it is very difficult to recover from mistakes without a snap aggro ability or a taunt and in defense gear mana is a huge issue. If you are able to get the correct gear, like the Deathbone set for example, it is a bit easier but still a chore.
My point is, although doable, it is not efficient, effective or fun and most people will not want you as a tank. Your threat will be below par, you will be quite squishy compared to bears and warriors and your mana issues will slow the group down. Can you do it with friends that are willing to deal with your issues then yes it would be fun and a nice change but with pugs it will be a nightmare.
So the question is, what are you looking to do? Run mostly or exclusively with friends and guildies or mostly pug it? If you see yourself pugging mostly I would advise against trying to tank 5 mans with this or similar specs.
Also, a side note. Live Strat, for orbs, is possibly the most unforgiving 5 man dungeon in Vanilla. Keep this in mind before you try to step into it with a very iffy tanking spec!
First off, when properly geared, talented, and played by a skilled prot paladin, they can be a great 5m tank. Prot Paladin is more than speccing holy and slapping on a shield - try 20/31/0 or 20/21/10 BoSanc if you are serious about Prot. Also, Engineering helps a lot.
Second, Holy Paladin is an amazing healer - big numbers, fast, and mana-return on spell crit. They also have great utility - auras, blessings, judgments, cleanse, and bubble. 35/11/5 is the easiest way to get all of the improved blessings.
Paladins bubble-hearth. Outside of that, I hear they heal pretty good.
You don’t neeeeeeeeed any more than 20 in Holy to heal decently. Plus your 33/18/0 build will SUCK at anything but healing and buff botting.
The more versatile tank or healing build is 20/31/0. Holy Shield is too important to pass on if you have any dreams of tanking. The raid tank build is 11/31/9 or 10/31/10, but Paladin raid tanking is highly gear-dependent as opposed to a much more forgiving dungeon tank.
“PALADINS ARE NOT HAVE TEH TAUNT” is a half-truth at best and a meme at worst. There is no button called TAUNT, but we do have Blessing of Protection to place on the aggro gainer and Blessing of Salvation for any PuG. You buff nothing but Salvation for any PuG, regardless of the DPS whining, until you know they can manage their threat against yours.
Mana issues are somewhat a challenge. You can easily be starved of Blue Rage, especially if you’re trying to GOGOGOGO like a Wrath tank. After the initial pull, which you have to nail everything at max rank, you can downrank Consecration or stop using it if you a comfy threat lead. You can also downrank Holy Shield if you only need the extra block and you’re comfy on threat.
Long story short–20/31/0 spec and don’t group with idiots.
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Keep in mind outside of undead and demon heavy content, which is not that common,you will be needing to either face pull group or use engineering an other items to pull groups. Or worse you might have to have other classes pull for you which can go badly, since i do not believe hunters have misdirect in the patch we will be using, which would atleast dump some good threat onto you.
Though as a paladin seal weaving gives you some pretty decent utility in groups. You can add some mana regen or healing via seal of light/wisdom, help with running mobs via seal of justice.
Blessings are both a nice thing as we have quite a varied selection of bonuses we can give via them, but also being set to a short duration like 5 mins you will spend alot of time managing them even in boss fights if they run long. I personally had a rule that if you asked for something other than salv to start with, than I would give you what you wanted, but the moment you pulled aggro an died you were getting salv regardless.
Also keep in mind of the long cd of bop/blessing of protection, it is the pseudo-taunt yet on a much longer cd. You also have blessing of sacrifice that you can toss on a target that is hitting on your healer/tank or dps to transfer some of the damage to you, as a healer/dps I found this nice in groups as it alleviated some spike damage. You also have blessing of freedom for those that get into slows an what have you. The biggest nice tool we have is the raid/group saving Divine intervention/DI, which you as the caster sacrifices yourself to place a shield on your target making them completely immune to damage an removing them from the awareness of mobs for a duration. If the group is going to wipe have the healer or a rez capable dps move to a safe location an use di on them, then when the coast is clear they can click off the buff an begin to rez the group.
I agree with most of this but 20/31/0, with equal skill, you will be near or at the bottom of any healing meters in raids. Decent and good healing are two different things. If you are ok with “decent” raid healing numbers then fine.
With this spec you will be “decent” at two highly sought after rolls but not really good at either. So this spec has a lot to offer but also leaves lot to be desired depending on your foreseen role.
Like I said earlier, it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to be a good raid healer, go 30 points in holy. If you want to be a meh raid healer, then 20 points in holy will serve you well. If you want to be in a raiding guild that don’t min/max and are casually progressing through content then this would be a great option. If you want to be a little more hardcore I would not go with 20 points in holy. You really really really want and need that extra crit. I mean really.
The OP was asking if being an effective raid healer and being able to tank a five man, with Live Strat in mind, was doable. I think it is but you might be unhappy with the results. To be able to semi-effectively tank 5 mans you will be giving up too much in the holy tree to be a really effective raid healer. To be a really good raid healer you do not have enough points to spare for the prot tree to be a viable 5 man tank. This is my opinion based on many years of doing both but mostly raid healing as a holy pally all the way back to 2005.
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Very good points Val but Blessing of Sacrifice is mostly worthless at redirecting 55 damage at max rank to the caster. At 60 this is very insignificant. Also, Misdirect was nowhere to be found in any vanilla patch so you are correct.