Greetings, fellow mages!
I wanted to ask everyone's opinions regarding how they choose their talents. Do you go entirely based on sims or do you make choices based on personal preference?
I know the absolute best way is to change talents (and sometimes even spec) based on the fight/boss.
I ask because for the longest time, Searing Touch + Meteor was simming the highest for me.
I had read that at a certain ilvl Firestarter + Pyroclasm would overtake the above combination. I finally got a 370 weapon last night, pushing me to 362 ilvl. According to the sims, this talent combination sims higher for me now.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ocUzoQzjbT2XSUaxgKStzS
Has anyone run RoP + Pyroclasm? How do you like it? I'm not sure how I'd feel about this combination because it seems a little clunky and hard to coordinate well...?
According to the sims, Versatility is also now my highest simming secondary stat:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7AuhyhV3mZSdpFWcJpvR6v
Are my fellow mages using Versatility enchants/socketables? It's just difficult for me to wrap my head around the idea of going Versatility after playing Fire in Legion (where Crit or Haste or Mastery shined).
Thanks!
I think that its a mix of all of the above to be honest. I just checked this myself, and firestrater/pyroclasm are indeed ahead for myself, but only by 1.1% which is not enough of a gain to justify the swap atm.
You also have to consider the fights as well. Many of the fights are movement heavy at the moment. So you have to ask yourself if you have time to sit there and hard caste a 4 second pyroblast.
Some of it's personal preference as well. I take living bomb over the other talents because I prefer to have more control over my AoE.
Stats weights are kind of living, in that what you want to aim for can change over time as you reach plateaus with the other stats. For the longest time my sims told me to stack mastery, but now they are all fairly even except haste is edging out the others and verse is my lowest priority.
It isn't that you want to swap out gear to get those stats, because that might shift your sim back to you wanting them again. It is more of a suggestion on what to look for on you next ilvl upgrade. It also depends on how important that stat is for the spec. I remember holding onto ilvl upgrades as frost because any loss below 15% haste was a dps loss regardless of int gained.
So you have to test out which stats are doing what in real time as well!
I would follow the general guidelines on icyveins or altered time for stats priorities, gems and enchants. I wouldn't gem or enchant verse, as it takes a lot to get a % of verse. You should get more out of crit/haste/mastery.
You can also check out how you are doing over on wowanalyzer!
I hope this helps, feel free to ask a more specific follow up question! :)
You also have to consider the fights as well. Many of the fights are movement heavy at the moment. So you have to ask yourself if you have time to sit there and hard caste a 4 second pyroblast.
Some of it's personal preference as well. I take living bomb over the other talents because I prefer to have more control over my AoE.
Stats weights are kind of living, in that what you want to aim for can change over time as you reach plateaus with the other stats. For the longest time my sims told me to stack mastery, but now they are all fairly even except haste is edging out the others and verse is my lowest priority.
It isn't that you want to swap out gear to get those stats, because that might shift your sim back to you wanting them again. It is more of a suggestion on what to look for on you next ilvl upgrade. It also depends on how important that stat is for the spec. I remember holding onto ilvl upgrades as frost because any loss below 15% haste was a dps loss regardless of int gained.
So you have to test out which stats are doing what in real time as well!
I would follow the general guidelines on icyveins or altered time for stats priorities, gems and enchants. I wouldn't gem or enchant verse, as it takes a lot to get a % of verse. You should get more out of crit/haste/mastery.
You can also check out how you are doing over on wowanalyzer!
I hope this helps, feel free to ask a more specific follow up question! :)
Firestarter/Pyroclasm is only like a .4% DPS increase over Searing Touch + Meteor for me currently. It doesn't seem quite worth it, especially since so many of the fights in Uldir are indeed very movement heavy.
Also, RoP+Meteor+Combustion just synergize so much better than RoP+Pyroclasm+Combustion. It's much easier to control. Combustion is too short to really benefit from Combustion (better off burning through Fire Blast charges and casting instant cast Pyros instead) and RoP just doesn't flow well with the RNG nature of Pyroclasm.
According to the Sims for me Vers provides the biggest DPS gain. But it just feels wrong to enchant my rings with it. I did for my recent 370 upgrade, but it still didn't feel right. I know haste and mastery are all important, but I have to admit, Fire always feels better to me personally with more crit...
Also, RoP+Meteor+Combustion just synergize so much better than RoP+Pyroclasm+Combustion. It's much easier to control. Combustion is too short to really benefit from Combustion (better off burning through Fire Blast charges and casting instant cast Pyros instead) and RoP just doesn't flow well with the RNG nature of Pyroclasm.
According to the Sims for me Vers provides the biggest DPS gain. But it just feels wrong to enchant my rings with it. I did for my recent 370 upgrade, but it still didn't feel right. I know haste and mastery are all important, but I have to admit, Fire always feels better to me personally with more crit...
I don't know if it's worth it. The sims run thousands of iterations and I feel like that's actually detrimental to running firestarter/pyroclasm, because rng is rng. I've gotten a single pyroclasm in a 5minute fight, and my dps was... really bad. [Feels like this happens more than it doesn't.]
Often times I've noticed that pyro procs do not mesh well with RoP use, as in the RoP has 3 seconds left and runs out mid-cast.[Potentially fixed with more haste?]
It also feels really bad to use during combustion for the same reason, because it can just munch the last few seconds for zero gain. I generally hold off on using a proc during this time. It's an extremely awkward playstyle, in my opinion, and I can't for the life of me get it to be nice.
Often times I've noticed that pyro procs do not mesh well with RoP use, as in the RoP has 3 seconds left and runs out mid-cast.[Potentially fixed with more haste?]
It also feels really bad to use during combustion for the same reason, because it can just munch the last few seconds for zero gain. I generally hold off on using a proc during this time. It's an extremely awkward playstyle, in my opinion, and I can't for the life of me get it to be nice.
11/08/2018 11:21 AMPosted by VachierI don't know if it's worth it. The sims run thousands of iterations and I feel like that's actually detrimental to running firestarter/pyroclasm
Why would a more accurate average hurt the perceived strength of a talent?
11/08/2018 12:12 PMPosted by Keestus11/08/2018 11:21 AMPosted by VachierI don't know if it's worth it. The sims run thousands of iterations and I feel like that's actually detrimental to running firestarter/pyroclasm
Why would a more accurate average hurt the perceived strength of a talent?
I could be completely incorrect but I just feel like it shows a 1% average dps gain, but doesn't show the !@#$show that is not getting procs. My dps goes from 14-15k to 11-13k when I get bad rng with pyroclasm [really depends how bad]. I just feel like the pros don't outweigh the cons, and sims won't show that.
Again, I'm speaking from feel and nothing more so take it with a grain of salt, i'm not a math guy and potentially sounding really stupid.
11/08/2018 12:40 PMPosted by Vachier11/08/2018 12:12 PMPosted by Keestus...
Why would a more accurate average hurt the perceived strength of a talent?
I could be completely incorrect but I just feel like it shows a 1% average dps gain, but doesn't show the !@#$show that is not getting procs. My dps goes from 14-15k to 11-13k when I get bad rng with pyroclasm [really depends how bad]. I just feel like the pros don't outweigh the cons, and sims won't show that.
Again, I'm speaking from feel and nothing more so take it with a grain of salt, i'm not a math guy and potentially sounding really stupid.
No that isn't how data works, testing a script hundreds of thousands of times does indeed consider "dry spells" as well as proc-rich runs, and aggregates them to produce what is effectively the 1% (or whatever your personal character reflects) gain. Appropriate execution, however, *does* need to be considered - if a player cannot effectively utilize the procs and rop management, then it's probably a loss overall if they can appropriately execute a meteor and combustion window.
11/08/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Coverfire11/08/2018 12:40 PMPosted by Vachier...
I could be completely incorrect but I just feel like it shows a 1% average dps gain, but doesn't show the !@#$show that is not getting procs. My dps goes from 14-15k to 11-13k when I get bad rng with pyroclasm [really depends how bad]. I just feel like the pros don't outweigh the cons, and sims won't show that.
Again, I'm speaking from feel and nothing more so take it with a grain of salt, i'm not a math guy and potentially sounding really stupid.
No that isn't how data works, testing a script hundreds of thousands of times does indeed consider "dry spells" as well as proc-rich runs, and aggregates them to produce what is effectively the 1% (or whatever your personal character reflects) gain. Appropriate execution, however, *does* need to be considered - if a player cannot effectively utilize the procs and rop management, then it's probably a loss overall if they can appropriately execute a meteor and combustion window.
Well there you have it, i'm just a dummy who can't play properly then. I guess my thought process behind it was that since I won't be pulling 10 thousand times, and potentially landing myself in the hundreds of bad ones, the sims aren't reflecting actual gameplay.
11/08/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Vachier11/08/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Coverfire...
No that isn't how data works, testing a script hundreds of thousands of times does indeed consider "dry spells" as well as proc-rich runs, and aggregates them to produce what is effectively the 1% (or whatever your personal character reflects) gain. Appropriate execution, however, *does* need to be considered - if a player cannot effectively utilize the procs and rop management, then it's probably a loss overall if they can appropriately execute a meteor and combustion window.
Well there you have it, i'm just a dummy who can't play properly then. I guess my thought process behind it was that since I won't be pulling 10 thousand times, and potentially landing myself in the hundreds of bad ones, the sims aren't reflecting actual gameplay.
Sims work to an average, like any other data aiming to predict outputs. You wont have an exact mirror experience, but on average, the numbers reflect X and Y as true over 100,000 iterations of testing a profile, so that creates the averages under which we operate and make decisions. There are times where you can gamble and maybe you'll benefit, maybe you'll lose in your personal experience, but those are things we can't measure and predict and generalize. So, if your profile says there's a 1% advantage to firestarter/pyro, then you'll on average see a 1% increase with those talents as opposed to stouch/meteor, assuming gameplay matches.
11/08/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Coverfire11/08/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Vachier...
Well there you have it, i'm just a dummy who can't play properly then. I guess my thought process behind it was that since I won't be pulling 10 thousand times, and potentially landing myself in the hundreds of bad ones, the sims aren't reflecting actual gameplay.
Sims work to an average, like any other data aiming to predict outputs. You wont have an exact mirror experience, but on average, the numbers reflect X and Y as true over 100,000 iterations of testing a profile, so that creates the averages under which we operate and make decisions. There are times where you can gamble and maybe you'll benefit, maybe you'll lose in your personal experience, but those are things we can't measure and predict and generalize. So, if your profile says there's a 1% advantage to firestarter/pyro, then you'll on average see a 1% increase with those talents as opposed to stouch/meteor, assuming gameplay matches.
That makes sense, thank you for your responses.
If you don't mind me asking, what's the correct way to play with pyro+RoP?
Are you supposed to fresh cast RoP then dump your procs, or just use it regardless of duration left on current RoP/availability of the next charge
11/08/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Coverfire11/08/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Vachier...
Well there you have it, i'm just a dummy who can't play properly then. I guess my thought process behind it was that since I won't be pulling 10 thousand times, and potentially landing myself in the hundreds of bad ones, the sims aren't reflecting actual gameplay.
Sims work to an average, like any other data aiming to predict outputs. You wont have an exact mirror experience, but on average, the numbers reflect X and Y as true over 100,000 iterations of testing a profile, so that creates the averages under which we operate and make decisions. There are times where you can gamble and maybe you'll benefit, maybe you'll lose in your personal experience, but those are things we can't measure and predict and generalize. So, if your profile says there's a 1% advantage to firestarter/pyro, then you'll on average see a 1% increase with those talents as opposed to stouch/meteor, assuming gameplay matches.
There is also a variance line that you can mouse over and have the damage ranges outlined.
11/08/2018 01:55 PMPosted by Talbyy11/08/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Coverfire...
Sims work to an average, like any other data aiming to predict outputs. You wont have an exact mirror experience, but on average, the numbers reflect X and Y as true over 100,000 iterations of testing a profile, so that creates the averages under which we operate and make decisions. There are times where you can gamble and maybe you'll benefit, maybe you'll lose in your personal experience, but those are things we can't measure and predict and generalize. So, if your profile says there's a 1% advantage to firestarter/pyro, then you'll on average see a 1% increase with those talents as opposed to stouch/meteor, assuming gameplay matches.
There is also a variance line that you can mouse over and have the damage ranges outlined.
That's pretty cool, thanks for the info! Appreciated, I'll be checking this out as soon as I get on.