Take Primordial Wave and Ascendance out of the SPEC trees and put them in the CLASS tree!

Classes Shaman
21

To the folks complaining about our class tree not having throughput, you must realize that because of this our spec trees are jam packed with awesome throughput with little to no utility.

If we were to include more throughput into the class tree, that would most likely need to be mirrored by utility being thrown into the spec trees, which would be awful.

Not only that, adding throughput to the capstones of the class trees would simply lock us into builds we would never change, which is awful. Having multiple builds for different situations is a good thing, and what the class tree does well right now.

The only argument that holds any real water is that our capstones as utility are a little underwhelming. Call and Stoneskin/tranquil could serve to be buffed or changed a little to do more.

22

And yet it’s chock full of filler stat increases, insignificant adjustments, recycled old talents based on mechanics that don’t work that way anymore, talents that do almost nothing whatsoever in PvE, and still has throughput talents in it.

But this is kind of the inevitable state of tree-style talents, as the sheer number of talents needed to build a tree necessitate loads of boring crap that barely impacts gameplay, because if everything was truly impactful, it would be impossible to balance. This is why the game rightly dumped talent trees in Mists of Pandaria to give us the current talent system, whose structure is capable of delivering actual impactful choices. But then the devs got lazy with talent design and balance, and started layering five borrowed power systems per expansion on top of the talent system, which further broke talent balance through inter-system synergies, resulting in a complete cluster muck.

We should not be going back to talent trees. They are a failed system that never delivered on the promise of customization or meaningful choices, and the new ones are shaping up to be only a marginal improvement even in their best forms. We should be sticking with the current talent system, and focusing on improving the quality of individual talents and the balance of their rows; not throwing the entire system out because the devs made a bunch of bad talents, stopped balancing them, and over-complicated the whole thing for themselves by stacking additional power systems on top (all things that will be problems in the forthcoming tree system, too).

23

It’s not a problem. Let’s take DKs for example: I would gladly trade all of our “exciting” choices for a bland class tree that’s just the greatest hits of all the class’s utility. Dark Simulacrum, Gorefiend’s, attack/casting speed slow for Frost Fever (finding a way to apply it for all specs), etc.

The class tree should be the crossovers, defensive, and utility. It being boring is fine because it shouldn’t have any part in how a class does DPS/Tanking/Healing.

24

Thank lord the devs don’t listen to people like you.

2 Likes
25

On my frost dk I actually enjoy the class tree.

They brought back the night fae deaths due cleave on the class tree. Really early to spend too.

Abom limb.

Access to defensives and abilities thst are relevant 90% of the time.

Soul Reaper is a nice option for frost again with shadow frost damage that scales with frost dk damage. Abom limb doesnt so I can choose some more single target priority damage, or go for another runic empowerment.

So much passive utility. Can choose to increase my dps instead of stuff like control undead… you know how often we use that in a death expansion? Maybe like one or two dungeons?

The capstone talents are interesting. I choose to give up stuff like sacrificial pact which feels weak to use for some passive defensive utility early on. Dks get so much defensive and offensive utility. And actually useful group/raid utility.

Shamans have to waste a talent point in there spec tree for stuff like gap closers (feral lunge), windfury totem - one of the most weakest buffs in the game. Party wide only melee only.

And thet get a bunch of utility totems. No cool damaging totems. Even our weak healing totems got turned into class talents and chain heal is something we got to talent too…

Dks also dont have to deal with utility stuff in there spec tree. Some ghost wolf qol buffs or stronger self healing on dps shamans? When that stuff could have been on the class side.

Primordial wave is in all spec trees. Yet we couldnt get chain harvest which had similar functionally and off healing capabilities. One of the best maelstrom spenders we ever had. For resto it gave us high lava burst chains and felt like a nice cd with crit cdr mechanic felt really awesone.

1 Like
26

The problems with the current talent system are specific. Specific talents that are badly designed, or specific rows that are poorly balanced. These are eminently solvable.

Bad individual design and poor balance are not only problems that still exist in talent trees, but are amplified. Every talent now has to be balanced not only against two direct competitors, but against every other talent in the tree, and for how it interacts with every other talent in the tree. This makes balancing anything but the dullest “X ability does Y more numbers/lasts Z seconds longer/etc” talents exponentially more difficult.

The trees inevitably wind up mainly comprised of boring filler, because the alternative is impossible to balance. This is an inherent systemic problem to tree-style talents. There is no solving it.

This game dumped talent trees because its first four expansions clearly demonstrated that they don’t work for their stated goal of providing customization. When it replaced them in Mists of Pandaria, the modern talent system provided far more actual customization because limiting each talent to direct competition against only two others made balancing of much more complex and impactful talents feasible. The rigidity of the structure allows for much wilder talent design, capable of resulting in full-on divergent playstyles within a given spec based on talent selection.

This only fell through when Blizzard hacked its dev team to the bone and the game’s balance in general went to crap. The new talent trees will not only be just as subject to poor balance, but even moreso, because there are far more variable interactions to account for.

The devs’ time would be infinitely better spent on fixing badly designed talents and rows in the current system than burning so much energy on trying to invent and balance 52 new trees in the next 3 months, on top of all the other changes they’re making going into DF.

27

You don’t “choose” to give that up, you have to. Sacrificial Pact, extra Chains target, Blinding Sheet, they’re all utilities that won’t be taken strictly because you need to spend 10 points on the bottom of the tree to get 2/3 capstone throughputs and all of the DPS throughput options.

That’s not fun. That’s not creating “interesting choices”. That’s you’re never going to skip AMS/Wraith/Icebound to pick Sac Pact. The DK class tree is generally fine as is but if it was purely utility and defensives like Shamans, then yes, it’d have interesting choices because you could take Blinding Sleet and the DND slow without worrying that you’d be losing damage elsewhere in the tree.

Again, since it was missed the first time:

28

You can continue to rant and rave with your bad take. The overwhelming majority, including the best shaman players in the world, view the shaman trees as one of if not the best designed. Sure, things can improve, but your take is completely and utterly bad.

1 Like
29

Please don’t ever again insinuate that chain harvest had the same functionalities as prim wave. Prim wave for both ele and resto created interesting gameplay styles that rewarded people who used it correctly. Chain harvest was a buffed chain heal that was essentially press and forget.

30

Primordial wave doesn’t really feel as good as chain harvest.

It just help spread flameshocks for ele and resto. Resto it had dual functionality with reptide and flame shocks. And had to wonder if you will use it on LB or healing wave.

I currently play venthyr shaman. The crit associated legendary makes venthyr a nice choice if you have crit. The cdr reduction mechanics on chain harvest are awesome. Especially for group healing and passive damaging. Saving it for opportune moments in fights feels good and actively keeping up flame shocks is nice as well to lower its cd. Feels nice for a mixed shaman set when you heal. Since you are working toward big heals as a resto shaman and big impact on group pulls.

Primordial wave is up more often. For enchance it enables a funnel dps style for enhancement.

I haven’t played ele much can’t speak for that. But I can say it’s disappointing to have primordial wave up on all the class trees. And not see chain harvest my fav shadowlands ability. Nor stuff like vesper totem in the class tree. The night fae spell I don’t mind since the dark blue on many abilities made it hard to see stuff on the ground.

31

Personally, i would feel alot better if p. Wave and ascendance swapped places on the enhance tree. Pwave feels like it belongs more on the element side, not the storm strike wf cap stone.

Or, put pwave in ascendance spot, make ascendance baseline, and buff doomwinds and make that the left side capstone.

1 Like
32

I’m not arguing that our tree isn’t one of the best of the current crop.

I agree that it is.

I’m arguing that even as the best, it’s a downgrade from the current system, because talent trees as a whole are a downgrade from the current system.

The value of P.Wave as a dps cooldown isn’t its direct dps output. It’s in the Splintered Elements legendary/talent that turns it into a personal Bloodlust every 45 seconds.

You use it for damage if you’re dps and healing if you’re resto, because you get minimal benefit out of it doing the reverse. You’re overthinking it.

What does it matter? Practically every viable build you’d want to make with the current tree will already be at most 1 point away from access to both.

Sweet Thrall-Jesus no.

33

On the beta you can use it to spread flame shocks. Don’t really need extra rip tides. For more lava burst uptime.

Chain harvest does that better. So yes they do have similar functionality. Chain harvest legendary spreads riptides/flameshocks to all your targets. Thats 10 targets worth of spells plus chain heal/chain lightning. Over all chain harvest was a way more fun and interesting spell then primordial which is like one part of that. Which is a healing wave chain lightning from anywhere for resto only.

Chain harvest being lowered by flameshock crits also encouraged you to actively be dpsing which felt nice. Primordial wave is less interactive in that regard and makes you just want to spread riptides which is something you should be doing anyway since it’s your most efficient mana heal and enables casting stuff like healing wave with shortened cast times.

The legendary for the short haste buff is nice for enhancement. On enh with venthyr right now you can summon wolves for more targets to heal, and have a potential 10 seconds reduced cdr for chain harvest. Where its easier to hit 10 targets in a group setting in mythic plus. Chain harvest will be missed. And I just wish they brought it back in DF. Primordial wave wasn’t my preffered talent in Shadowlands.

1 Like
34

I’m going to assume you don’t realize that the talent trees by and large are the current talent system… instead of getting spells as you level you get them through the trees. Which means your stance is nonsense. The only “system” being removed is borrowed power, and if you really want to argue that should stay let me go grab some popcorn…

2 Likes
35

Primordial weaker next expansion no proc resets is massively weaker and costs too much points.

Overload damage and earthshock mastery will be better for pvp.

36

Primordial wave will be significantly stronger in DF for single target and DRE builds as we’ll be looking at 15-20 second resets depending on procs which will allow for near permanent haste buff.

In pure large aoe it will likely be worse, but you don’t really play prim wave in those instances anyway.

37

If we’re talking bad takes, I think you’ve got me beat here, bud. Because, wow. Just, oof.

No, the talent trees are not remotely the same system as what we have now. Obviously. Like, that’s so self-evident that I honestly don’t even have a clue how you’re making that comparison. Like, just for an extremely clear example, in the current system you have to choose between Earth Spike, Elemental Spirits, and Ascendance as your Enhancement capstone. You are guarantied to have one, and only one, of those three talents.

In the new trees, you can get all three of Primordial Wave, Feral Spirits, and Ascendance/DRE. You can even get all of the follow-up talents to two of them, or max out all of their 2/2 follow-ups and still get the final endpoint for one.

Or, you have none of the capstone talents. You could actually spend every spec point you’ve got without taking anything at all in the 20+ tier.

That is a massive departure with immense balance implications that do not exist in the current talent system, because the current system limits talents to one-per-row. Those talents can be balanced against each other relatively easily, because the devs can know that we will only ever have one of them.

How do the devs expect to balance Primordial Wave, Feral Spirits, and Ascendance/DRE and their follow-ups, when players can have anywhere from none to all three of them? If popping Feral Spirits + Alpha Wolf along with Ascendance + Thorim’s Invocation results in so much MSW generation and auto-spammed Chain Lightning + Wolf Cleave that it has to be nerfed, how is Blizzard going to do that without ruining either the Feral Spirits or Ascendance lines for any builds that were only using one or the other?

38

At this point it’s evident you’re just daft.

39

Says the guy claiming that there’s no material difference between the current talent system and talent trees.

40

Shaman class tree is great as is.

Its pure utility and is S tier compared to any other. You can get your damage and spec identity from spec trees and flesh out what utility/tools you need from class tree.

Its absolutely brilliant