The 6pc bonus still won’t benefit Ret much unless Seal and/or Judgement damage is added. CS and DS do very little of our damage, the latter even with massive buffs still performs poorly.
Without such an inclusion, 6pc still won’t be alluring enough for Rets to equip over previous sets.
Agreed, the buff is a massive step in the right direction to make it viable but the 6pc needs to include those.
The set is effectively killing a play style beloved by many Ret paladins as the pure Exorcism build that many players are using and love in AQ is now defunct and performs the lowest out of all projected dps specs
Crusader Strike and Divine Storm account for a combined 7% of a exodins DPS
adding seals to the 6pc will just further exacerbate the issue
Agreed. The update was a good step forward and while I appreciate the effort to address our concerns, this feels like it falls too short.
Would really love something that benefits twisting, and something that allows non stacking exo to exist for those who like exo.
As it stands, 6pc is still not good enough to use for twisting or stacking. We simply cannot afford to drop t2 4pc.
You may wonder “Why not just use 4pc t2 shoulder enchant” - this would be a net dps loss. We’d still use t2 2pc for the 3sec judgement but would lose the ability to enchant shoulders with Templar (Twisting) or Sealbearer (stacking) - which losing sealbearer would completely eliminate stacking as an option and would be alot less dps for twist to lose templar.
What if paladins were treated like the other triple hybrids (druid and shaman)? Both classes have FOUR tier sets between their specs. We have THREE.
Instead of having to craft a set that appeases all FOUR styles of paladin DPS (twist, stack, exo, and shock), maybe we need to have a set that benefits faster weapons (exo and shock) and a set that benefits slower weapons (stack and twist)?
Feels like something that should have been done a few phases ago, but the lackluster bonuses here really expose the need to fork into two distinct sets, to my mind.
It was show cased at one point there was another color of T2 and it has Shockadin specific bonuses on it but never saw the light of day.
This is exactly what should have been done.
Meanwhile every spec including prot paladin just use 1 set. Ret 2/4 Set Draconic. Maybe sets should be designed better for their respecive roles before expanding to mutiple sets.
To make it easier they could just adjust it to where the following occurs.
6pc: All Holy Damage including Divine Storm deals more damage vs Undead.
Or they can make 2pc also make Divine Storm holy damage as well and then just convert 6pc to: All Holy Damage dealt.
Or just do a blanket easy fix and say: All damage dealt to Undead.
Exodin is doing 33% less damage than seal stacking and 25% less damage than twisting, it really needs some help
Putting +20% Holy damage back on Occult/Sebaceous debuffs would help close the gap a bit for Exo and give all paladins a bit of lift.
Otherwise, Exo needs a new crutch weapon with a blazefury-esque proc and/or a massive speed/str proc. Adding something like blazefury to Claymore of Unholy Might (C.U.M.) would probably be the solution?
Or… you know… Exo/Shock get their own set with a 2pc bonus that doesn’t absolutely blow for them 
Man, people are really dedicated to seal twisting and exorcism. What should be their focus for the last phase of the game?
T1 6 piece seal stacking.
Suggestion:
Considering how all Paladin specs need Ret Draconic 2&4 set in order to be a functioning class, bake in the Ret Draconic 2 set and 4 set into the Improved Judgement talent in the ret tree considering how every single paladin spec but holy uses it. This will retain player power while freeing up gear slots for paladins.
So instead of the talent just reducing the CD of Judgement by 2 seconds, It will reduce the cooldown by 7 seconds and also increase Judgement damage by 10% per talent point for a max of 20%, then seals will no longer be consumed when judging.
You can probably just change the old draconic 2/4 set to give minor stats like 2% crit or something so it doesn’t offset player power too much. Also while people say this may invalidate T2, we have a few other sets that we can easily fall back on such as T2.5 or the upcoming T3. Its better to invalidate a tier set and bake it into a the class, than to be stuck wearing it forever because you cannot function as a class without it.
This is true, the CS/DS additions to 6-set only give a small buff to Exodin. Stacking and Twisting will want to continue using 4p T2 Draconic instead of the 3-second judgements.
6-set at this point should be completely reworked into an Exodin-specific bonus to revive them from the depths of the dps charts (way below everyone). A buff to the Claymore of Unholy Might is also desperately needed as its currently thousands of DPS below both Truthbearer and Kalimdor’s Revenge. You could pair these changes together in order to revive Exodin to middle-of-the-pack where it belongs.
I made this post on the other thread that @OGB made, but I will post it here as well.
In regards to saving twisting from the chopping block and addressing the seal stacking meta:
The issue is that double judging every 3 seconds is insanely powerful and ruins our spec balance in favor of one single spec: Seal Stacking with Sealbearer shoulder enchant (6P T1) and 4P T2. Now Exodin needs way way more help to survive, but let’s talk about Seal Twisting for a second.
The reason why Seal Twisting has fallen off here is because it’s the only spec without access to double judging. In Phase 5, Judgement mechanics were changed to only judge the lowest duration seal in order to prevent twisters from double judging every 3 seconds with 4p T2. But now, thanks to the Sealbearer / 6P T1 shoulder enchant/rune, twisting is the only spec that does not have access to it. Because if you use Sealbearer, you are by definition, no longer twisting and are now seal stacking. Which many twisters do not like. They want to twist.
So let’s just give twisting back the double judge?
I really haven’t been able to think of a single downside from this specific change. Maybe someone else can tell me what’s wrong with this because it seems like an obvious perfect fix for this issue.
Move the “Double Judge” part of the 6P T1 / Sealbearer set bonus over to the 2P T2 Draconic set bonus instead, adding it on top of the current 2P bonus.
It’s the “JUDGEMENT” set after all. Now, every Paladin uses 2P T2 Draconic already and likely will forever until the end of time, it’s too good and so much quality of life.
So this means it will have exactly zero impact on any gearing, and certify it as perma-BIS into Scarlet Enclave, which is good because we all love our Judgements not consuming seals, which should’ve been baseline from the start. The recent “Sanctified” gear changes make this even better / cleaner.
So instead of requiring the developers to redo / revert the underlying Judgement mechanics and affect Classic Era / Anniversary, let’s simply move the “Double Judge” part of the bonus so that all three builds have access to it.
This buffs Seal Twisting by allowing them to “Double Judge” instead of “Cancel Judge”. You judge at the same exact timing as right now, which requires the same level of rhythm and skill, but no longer need a second /cancelaura macro for your Judgement to alternate between, making it a lot easier for newer players as well who get screwed up by the second keybind.
The exact magnitude of this buff is to give twisting the 1 Judgement of Command every 3.2 seconds that it currently does not have, but the other builds do already have from Sealbearer, the core reason why Twisting is falling behind Stacking. This will put Twisting slightly above Seal Stacking, just like in BWL, which is the exact spec balance that allowed both to thrive and have a healthy population.
It’s not a crazy buff, it’s just one Judgement of Command every twist. It’s precise. It puts us exactly where we need to be, just slightly over stacking, to reward us for the extra effort and practice we put in to this more difficult rotation, just like a melee weaving hunter does; and they should be rewarded for it as well.
Exodin and Seal Stacking and even Protection Paladin are completely unaffected, along with anyone else who is already using Sealbearer + 2P T2 together.
Now Exodin needs much much more help to survive as it’s currently way way way behind, so that’s a topic for another post / day. However the developers have given it crutches to keep it alive in BWL and in AQ, due to its poor scaling, so I don’t see why Naxxramas would be any different.
If Exodin is important enough to save, then Twisting should be just as important if not more important to save.
If Exodin & Twist are simply allowed to die in favor of this one spec that the majority of Paladins are not currently doing, then many people will be extremely disappointed, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the population of Retribution parses and Paladin subscribers drops off a cliff.
Naxxramas would receive a massively negative critical reception from Paladins due to the removal of all of our build diversity, builds that people love and have put all of their time and practice into.
We’ve been doing these rotations since day one of Phase 4 and we have fallen in love <3 with them. Some of us have been twisting since TBC. For a lot of us, it’s the only reason we play, and BWL / AQ have been absolute perfection for twisting - why ruin a good thing?
Many players even think that SOD twisting is better than TBC twisting, which is a high standard, and honestly I agree with them. It would be an absolutely tragedy to let it shrivel up and wither due to this one OP shoulder enchant / rune.
Thanks for reading my impassioned plea. Follow the light, brothers.
Billions must twist,
Surveillant
Quit hating on seal stacking, it’s the superior playstyle, pure big number dopamine. People are just worried they gonna look like a 
with their minmax stupid gear.
nobodys hating on stacking it just shouldnt be obsoleting every other build
The Pure Exo build from AQ is getting left in the dirt, after the most recent changes it’s still performing at 27k dps, well below other classes and specs
Yes it needs another giant crutch like Kalimdor’s Revenge or Truthbearer or Tier 2.5 4-set. Without these giant crutches it will always die off, and we’ve seen this every single phase, and they’ve always intervened to resurrect it. It just has absolutely awful scaling, probably the worst in the entire game, due to a lack of crit & attack power scaling. It can really only scale with attack speed, or a spell power proc like Kalimdor’s Revenge or Seal of Righteousness through Sealbearer, that buffs attack power through Sheath, or something to address crit scaling like adding Exorcism to RV at the cost of Judgement or something.
Additionally now that they are using Sealbearer again they are clogging their rotation up with seals once more, which many people do not like. This lowers the amount of Exorcisms you can cast, which hurts both your attack power and crit weights. Exodin should’ve been designed around using Excommunicator on the shoulder instead, but as we’ve seen time and time again, the Sealbearer bonus is inherently problematic for spec balance and class design and it is way too powerful.
My issue with it, is it ruins the gameplay feel. Twisting gives me the instant dopamine when I press my buttons, it turns my Seals into active attack abilities. When I press my seal I see big fat burst damage, thus it makes pressing my seals feel good/impactful; while also feeling rewarding due to being a timing based mechanic that I can mess up.
Stacking removes the impact of pressing my seals and turns them into boring maintanence buffs while also removing the timing based gameplay that rewards me when I do well; thus ruining the satisfying and rewarding feel of the rotation for me.
I’m not trying to hate on Stacking, just explaining why people like myself enjoy twisting over it.
T2 2pc at the very least needs to be a Skill book given how dependant we are on this.