T28 Set Bonus Feedback - Shadow Priest

Note: cross post from Gearing thread: Gearing in Eternity’s End - #134 by Publik-arthas

With the help of the Shadow Community we would like to provide some rough feedback on the set bonuses that have appeared in the 9.2 PTR. The following is mostly focused on feedback for how the playstyle of these bonuses might work out, rather than tuning. Once we get access to the PTR and play with it we will make a follow up post with more hands-on experience based feedback.

  • Darkened Mind (2p) - Dark Thoughts has an additional 15% chance to trigger for each Shadow damage over time effect on the target.
  • Living Shadow (4p) - Consuming a Dark Thought causes your shadow to animate for 8 sec. Your shadow follows you, dealing (138.4% of Spell power) Shadow damage to your target over the duration.

Initially after reading the set bonus we are immediately concerned with the playstyle around Dark Thoughts. Since it is the central aspect of the set bonus a lot of our feedback is centered around issues this mechanic has and potential problems with getting more procs. One of the biggest red flags is the fact that Dark Thoughts only has a single charge. This effectively removes our ability to play around procs in a more meaningful way with the game effectively expecting us to use the proc ASAP. This becomes a challenge since to do optimal damage we usually want to be casting Mind Flay while consuming that proc. In a world where it had multiple charges we could use the 2pc increase proc chance to instead bank up charges for when we need them, rather than potentially just losing more charges. In order for the set bonus to thrive we need more charges of Dark Thoughts.

The other big problem with getting more Dark Thought procs is that depending on tuning of the 4 set bonus and other spells we could end up dropping casting Mind Blast on cooldown/when we do NOT have a Dark Thought proc. Right now during our cooldowns, casting Mind Flay is our lowest priority action. However with this change Mind Flay effectively stops being a filler and becomes a vessel for proccing more Dark Thoughts and therefore more 4 set uptime. This is also quite dangerous because it means we have less buffer to handle mechanics or move while fighting than we did previously, which is not a fun thing for a tier set to enable. While these problems are not necessarily directly related to the set bonus, since they buff Dark Thoughts, these problems are definitely concerning.

Regardless of tuning, another issue this magnifies is Voidform complexity. As we mentioned in our previous feedback post: Voidform is becoming increasingly overwhelming. Adding an additional layer to this already Insanity overloaded cooldown window with Dark Thoughts/Mind Flay weaving will make the spec harder to play optimally and make things even more chaotic. This set bonus actually gives Mind Flay + Dark Thoughts the exact same problem we mentioned in that feedback post with Mind Sear + Searing Nightmare. While Dark Thoughts does not have the same hard requirement, it effectively does when talking about optimal damage and all of those same problems get attached to it, especially with this set bonus with more procs and extra damage tied to those procs with the 4 set. Pending tuning this could end up with the player having to make decisions on whether to cap Insanity, delay Void Bolt, or use their Dark Thought proc which is not a fun choice to make.

In addition to general gameplay issues with buffing Dark Thoughts, this also has direct implications to our Covenant choice and Covenant balancing. Specifically this impacts Kyrian and Night Fae choices, for similar reasons. As a Kyrian Ascended Blast replaces Mind Flay, which because of these set bonuses is no longer simply a filler spell. Because of this Kyrian effectively gets less value from the set bonus compared to other Covenants. Comparing this to Necrolord specifically you lose between 5-7 globals of Mind Flay during cooldowns, which equates to roughly 3-4 T28 4-set spawns on Average.

Night Fae has a slightly similar problem but instead with Insanity gain per second. Due to the Wrathful Faerie, Night Fae’s naturally generate more Insanity during cooldowns than other Covenants. This in turn causes us to be overloaded with Insanity and we already have issues getting ahead of this, which typically results in choosing between capping Insanity or dropping important spells like Void Bolt. Giving players more things to do as Night Fae with more Dark Thoughts will either reduce the value of the Covenant choice, or reduce the value of the tier set bonus, neither of which is a good choice to make.

Moving on specifically to the 4 set bonus, since we are not quite sure how this works most of this feedback is more hand wavey until we get all the details. The big question for this is what happens when you consume a Dark Thought while the pet is already active. Does it spawn an additional pet, or does it simply extend the duration of the existing one? If it simply extends the duration of the existing pet we could be further incentivized to fish for more Dark Thought procs to make sure we keep it active as long as possible, which does not bode well for casting Mind Blast on cooldown. Furthermore based on scaling this could cause the player to get more procs than the boss will live for. What we don’t want to see is the player being forced to choose between fishing for procs, or ignoring them based on how long this pet lasts for in potential scenarios where we can infinitely stack this pet. This problem is even worse in AoE scenarios where we generally get more procs than we want to spend to begin with, effectively turning the set bonus into a maintenance buff rather than a fun interactive proc.

Speaking of AoE, we want to mention specifically that we are a bit disappointed that our set bonus has no interaction on AoE, especially considering so many other specs have set bonuses that do have single and multi-target components attached to them. This was by far our biggest issue we discussed in the feedback post and we were really hoping that our set bonus would have some interaction in AoE or even spread cleave to make the spec more desirable in those situations. This is actually a similar problem that we had with our Eternal Call to the Void legendary. That Legendary was tweaked to cast Mind Sear instead if you got a proc in AoE. An AoE component attached to this legendary would at least make it feel better in AoE, or maybe revisit how it works all together.

Overall without playing with the set bonus we are a bit saddened that it revolves around a mechanic that already has its own issues and does not provide us with any additional AoE or Cleave. If the interactions with Dark Thoughts and the rest of our kit get ironed out and there is some AoE component another pet based proc could be interesting to add to our existing pet-based cooldowns.

In the meantime we’ll hold off on numbers and more concrete feedback until we do some play testing.

21 Likes

i also like to see some pvp component for the tier set as well, since in pvp we are less able to free cast mindflay it looses some value, it will be nice to see something like: mindflay becomes uninterruptible either as one of the sets bonuses or with a condition like when you have all 3 dots on the target mindflay is uninterruptible, it can also help shadow with slows since mindflay is our only slow ( besides psyfiend which is a pvp talent and situational) im not sure how powerful it will be, but i just wanted to give feedback about the pvp perspective of the tier sets.

1 Like

Make Mind Flay Great Again.

Please don’t. xD That’s what this set bonus does and it’s awful.

3 Likes

i hope they revert mind flays cast time. Its the reason i cant run mind trauma anymore. THANKS ALOT BLIZZ>

As a mythic raider, this set feels terrible, even if it is extremely overpowered (The 50%~ proc on each tick of mind flay), long channeled ability is fine once in a while, but definitely not something that should be casted constantly, for example, void torrent is an amazing ability, asking you to find an opportunity to stand still for 3 second for full value every 30 seconds, or the sun king’s blessing legendary/pyroclasm talent from fire mage, asking you to find an opportunity to hard cast 4s of pyroblast for full effect. But having a filler, with a cast time in general just feels terrible. I personally hate using mind flay as a filler spell already, this tier bonus is just making it much worse.

Some rough ideas on how to make a good tier set, something with shadow word: pain, it is the only dot that is available to shadow priest during aoe, one of the most spammed spell during movements in raids, and used quite a bit in pvp when kiting. Perhaps 2pc casting sw:p on a target already afflicted with sw:p will do a percent of remaining damage left on the sw:p, this will be very unnoticeable in patchwerk, but help a ton in movement, pvp, and especially aoe m+. With that, the 4pc should be single target focused, almost anything works.

General shadow priest aoe changes, please take searing nightmare out of the talent, or change the talent, having to stand still, spend 2 gcd to do 1000-2000 damage aoe is not okay. Either make it a normal aoe spender, similar to epidemic, does static damage to enemies afflicted by sw:p, with another skill to fit the talent slot that applies vt and sw:p on a cooldown. Or make mind flay and mind sear be able to channel on the move.
VT application is also a problem in aoe, suggestion is to make void eruption apply vt and sw:p to all target near the impact, or the above, a talent similar to dark void in bfa, a cooldown that applies aoe vt sw:p.

Another petition to revert the Devouring plague nerf, main spender feels flimsy and somehow making it worse damage wise in 3 target scenario compared to searing nightmare. One of the reason the insanity cap problem is so insane is due to how weak the main spender is, there are more incentive to cast void bolt, void torrent, into another void bolt and cap on insanity for a few seconds rather then spending the insanity on devouring plague.

The Dark Thoughts bonuses just seem boring, and problematic for some covenants as Publik has explained.

Boring suggestion would be add Voidform CDR to 2pc and increased Voidform potency from 4pc.

Wild suggestion: 2pc Mind Flay and Mind sear castable while moving. 4pc Gives the talent Hungering Void allowing us to pick Ancient Madness or Surrender to Madness.

There will be future set bonuses peeps, I actually like Dark Thoughts. I find it really weird that people who choose to play Shadow hate Mind Flay. It’s the most flavorful spell in the kit post Voidform change from prepatch.

Its more about what happens when you buff filler spells in modern wow rotations. Mind flay is an incredibly cool and iconic spell, I agree, and I’d love it if blizzard found a way to make it feel good to press sometimes. But when you just outright buff it like this, you absolutely kill what little mobility shadow had during actual encounters.

A similar comment could be made about ele shaman. You have stormkeeper to do something cool with lightning bolt every minute, but otherwise it’s just the thing you press when you’re standing still and have nothing to do. The stronger it is, the more you lose not casting it while moving and the worse your damage in movement situations becomes relative to where it would be otherwise.

I also hate the idea that any spell would be considered filler. Seems wasteful, every spell should have a purpose. Look at Mage, Fireball and Frostbolt are “filler” but also central to the spec as it’s how they fish for procs.

Didn’t casting the old Devouring Plague used to buff Mind Flay or am I thinking of something else?

Solace and insanity, a talent that we chose on fights with lower movement and had options otherwise for fights with more movement.

Encounter complexity has also come on a lot since MoP, you move a lot more than you did back then in both raids and dungeons.

Mind flay still has a purpose though, it’s just that push comes to shove and you have to give up casting it to move somewhere your damage doesn’t tank in the process. If flay did 3x more damage, which is what this set bonus does, then having to move when you would otherwise be flaying would suck.

Fireball is also absolutely not central to fire’s rotation, everything relevant they do is in combust where they never press fireball at all, and their whole rotation / playstyle is built around being in combustion as much as possible with things like Sun king’s blessing and the night Fae covenant ability. If a fire mage has to stop casting fireball to move, they absolutely do not care.

You could also argue that frost’s reliance on frostbolt to generate procs in single target is part of why the spec performs poorly even when it’s tuned appropriately, because it’s reliant on standing still and turreting casts. The place frost shines is aoe, where it gets to ignore frostbolt entirely in favour of the interaction with frozen orb and blizzard to generate infinite ice Lance procs.

Totally agree, mega mind flay is basically void torrent, which I am perfectly fine with pressing, but only once every 30s. If void torrent had 0 cooldown, I would hate pressing that button. It removes the skill aspect of finding the time and place to cast a void torrent without getting interrupted. Making mind flay into void torrent just isn’t fun, even if the damage is insane, the idea itself is still flawed.

Fireball is a filler, but I would argue it is still central to fire, mismanaging your small skb combustion (not enough fire blasts, or not enough haste, or messing up the infernal cascades) will cause the cd’s to misalign, especially rune and kindling night fae fire mages. Fireball instant pyro fishing is very important in smoothing out the rotation, it certainly is more important than mind flay is to shadow priests. If you remove fireball, fire mages will feel considerably worse with scorch, not being able to pyro fish, while removing mind flay, spriest will probably be okay with spamming sw:p to replace that.

The problem with frost is more of the tuning to be honest. The only playstyle frost has that is competitive in single target damage is icy propulsion thermal void, and that requires constant uptime on bosses. Any downtime, phase transition, and movement will ruin that playstyle. It isn’t frost bolt’s problem, but of the bad tuning, if frost has competitive damage running a build that doesn’t rely on decreasing and extending a 3-minute cd, they would be doing much better. I would argue it is a problem with tuning, rather than frost bolt.

Is that not the exact situation shadow would be in if mind flay had triple its current value? Losing uptime of your spell that has no cooldown (Filler) due to movement or positioning resulting in massively reduced dps, either by missing cd alignment or just raw damage loss.

That’s fair, fireball does have some uses right now to fit those extra procs, I probably downplayed it for the sake of making a point. That said though, the 9.2 fire set bonus seems set to remove fireball from the combustion rotation, extend combustion, and make infernal cascade extending a complete none issue. All around reducing the importance of fireball.

At the end of the day specs have so many more powerful unique and interesting things to be doing than pressing their filler spells, and I’d prefer a set bonus that focuses on making those powerful or interesting things more powerful or interesting.

Yes, that was my point, mind flay is inherently not a “fun” ability, I am fine with it being a filler, a tier set built around it is not something I want to see.
Filler that does tremendous damage means a spec with no cooldown, the only spec with a similar playstyle, on the top of my head, is BM hunter, that is why they are able to do everything on the move, and a lot of the power budget for that spec is spent on the movement capabilities. If the triple damage mind flay is what they decide to go with, shadow priest will just be a stationary bm hunter, which sounds like a really really boring playstyle to me.

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I personally like Mind Flay. But, I like “rot” classes and that’s part why I played spriest for a while this xpac compared to my afflock that I played for years. The spriest felt better to me.

I agree with OP tho on some of his concerns.

Personally, I miss beta/ptr where mind blast was always instant through mind flay. xD