Sylvanas Violated Forsaken Free Will

Lore Story Forum
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And all explicit lore sources point in that direction.

Cdev :

" Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. "

Some text from the Forsaken intro quests in Cata :

“ You are no slave , . You are free to follow whatever path you choose from here.”

“Valdred will be a valuable asset to the Forsaken. As for the other two… there is not much we can do. We cannot force them ”

"You say she ran away? What a shame.

Very well. As long as she’s maintained her free will , there’s still hope. "

All the context needed for Baines comment here :

" You raised him as a Forsaken. But you planned to deny him his free will. To violate his mind. "

Lilian Voss on Zellings death :

" We Forsaken are raised with free will. That’s what separates us from the Scourge. Sylvanas Windrunner used to take pride in that distinction.

But after all I have seen in this war, I must wonder if that still holds true. "

So, I think it is pretty clear where the narrative intends to push us in interpreting these events. Proudmoore was raised as an undead capable of free will by Sylvanas, but was denied his ability to choose in contradiction to previously stated (both by Cdev and Cata intro quests) Forsaken values.

The only, and I mean only rebuttal to this seems to be oddly specific qualifications and interpretations of lore which are no where explicitly confirmed or stated by any game text. Sylvanas doesn’t deny raising him as a Forsaken. The players loyal to her do. The game doesn’t state that there is some unique clause for free willed undead raised by the Forsaken. Only players loyal to Sylvanas do. Indeed, in the Cata quest text it seems to imply undead raised who refuse to join the Forsaken are allowed their choice, “We can not force them.” Of course, they tend to be killed. Still, a choice is given and stressed as important.

So, to repeat myself, the fact remains Derek Proudmoore was raised as a fully functioning free willed undead by Sylvanas but denied the choice to become Forsaken when he was shackled immediately upon being raised, thus violating the cornerstone of what differentiates the Scourge and Forsaken.

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Sylvanas makes the law, for both the Forsaken and the Horde. If she wants to deny an individual their free will, she’s legally empowered to do that. Considering the Horde allows slavery, including for Forsaken, it’s not even far outside the norm.

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Still makes it a violation of “…one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture” regardless of her legal power to do so or not.

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So? Characters violate their own culture all the time.

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OMG! Sylvanas is evil and does evil stuff!?

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You guys are jerks.

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The forsaken don’t care.
Baine did care, and they want to kill him for it.

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Lilian Voss cared bout Zelling and she says “We forsaken” identifying herself as one. Any how as the story progresses we will see whether more parts of the Forsaken turn on their “Queen”.

No, no no you don’t get it. This is the story forums! We can’t possibly be jerks or trolls. In fact, if you disagree with the majority opinion YOU are the jerk and troll around here!

Gonna start replying with “So?” to every thread now. Thanks bro!

Not the point of the thread. But congrats!

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The problem with this whole “She violated Free Will” thing is that Blizz has always done a terrible job of portraying what the Forsaken actually mean when they say it’s a “cornerstone” of their society.

They say the Forsaken value free will, yet show them enslaving people all across their various zones. So maybe it only pertains to Undead?

Except they willingly and knowingly raise people into enraged states that allows them to be manipulated without consent. Sure, they may eventually give them the “Join us or not” offer. But until then, those enraged Undead are not Forsaken. They’re tools being used.

That’s why I’ve often disagreed with Derek being a Forsaken. Because it’s obvious that Blizz is only pushing it as extra icing on the drama cake.

What’s different than raising Derek and using him, and raising those farmers in Andorhal and using them? Or even Abominations? Thanks to a quest, we know what goes in to creating an Abomination. And it involves damaging the brain so much that it can’t remember who it used to be. That doesn’t sound like consent to me.

Point being, Blizz never really thought this whole “Free Will” thing out. It’s something they tacked on in Cata with scotch tape and bits of string. And now they’re trying to turn it in to a major plot point, despite how awkward it all is.

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Maybe the point of this plot line is to bring some of these contradictions front and center and perhaps reconcile them. I like the free will thing and I think it adds some level of depth to the Forsaken, regardless of how bad you might think it has been carried out by Blizzard. Speaking of that, I’ll say what I have said elsewhere: This is lower than comic book garbage media we are consuming and our expectations should match that. We aren’t reading like Dostoevsky here.

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who???

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This is the core of how I see it.

Blizzard has never actually cared enough about Forsaken culture to establish clear values, so “Sylvanas is breaking the rules!” falls flat. Forsaken writing has always been about shock value and giving the Alliance something to be angry about, so they can go to war and still feel happy with their moral superiority.

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Ironically, it was a pretty consistent story point up until Cata. Cata is where it started breaking down, with the stuff in Silverpine that was almost certainly written just for shock value.

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Who cares?

The Horde literally firebombs puppies and children in the Brennedan cinema.

The BFA writers don’t care about consistency, all they care about is villain batting the Horde as hard and often as possible.

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Aw shoot. Here we go again.

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The points have been argued to death, but the way I see it, neither Voss or baine are Forsaken, actual Forsaken see the raising and what she’s going to do to him, and they don’t care. Until the actual people that she’s supposed to be violating the belief of make a stand about it, I don’t think conversation about this will be anything other then the exact same points being repeated by both sides.

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That’s another good point, and another reason why this whole thing just feels silly.

Voss, quite literally, was not a Forsaken character up until BfA. Her entire story is how she refused to join the Forsaken and went rogue (pun sorta intentional). She was always a lone agent who didn’t answer to anyone, except in Legion when they shoved her in to the Uncrowned.

Voss was never Forsaken. So it’s just so incredible jarring when they suddenly bring her up as the face of “Forsaken values” when, just an expansion ago, she apparently couldn’t care less about the Forsaken.

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Even when you speak to her she tells you she’s only here because she was “requested” as in conscripted, and it serves her own personal motivations. Nothing to do with “her people”.

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This is why having multiple writers is detrimental to the stories that Blizzard wants to tell.

They obviously don’t communicate, or share what they wrote in group meetings, leading to retcons and plotholes becoming exceedingly common.

Not to mention the fact that the pool of Horde characters is shrinking rapidly, forcing the writers to just sit anyone down in the chair to read the lines they need, but not ones that work for the character.

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Which is why I’ve always maintained that the Forsaken are actually worse then the Scourge (although I don’t know if Blizzard intended this). At least with the Scourge undead an argument can be made that they’re essentially being mind controlled by another party.

But the Forsaken? What’s their excuse for the atrocities they’ve committed?

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