Sylvanas Sabotage

The Horde ravaged Quel’Thalas*

They didn’t destroy it - That’s canon in Chronicles along with other WoW books, it was said they could have a tedious recovery.

Now if anyone had a title for ‘Destroying Quel’Thalas’ it would be the Scourge.

They didn’t destroy Gilneas per say, they did however invade it & cause it to be inhabitable for a short time with the plague which caused the citizens to evacuate - but that time quickly passed by the end of Cataclysm as seen with the rogue questline (City became re-inhabitable and was taken by the Twilights Hammer & a commander Black Dragon).

Those, for the most part I agree with.

  • Stormwind however wasn’t the whole Horde - just the OG Horde with orcs & whatnot.
  • Theramore wasn’t intended to be destroyed (That’s an understatement for obliteration) but captured by majority of the Horde - unaware of Garrosh’s true intentions.
  • Hated what they did to Azshara :broken_heart:
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You and me both.

You didn’t quote the third reason I gave for why there was a problem with villainizing Sylvanas, whether she was a “good villain” (whatever that means) or not. I firmly believe that making a faction leader into a villain, and especially doing it twice to the same faction, is a terrible idea.

I think it could be an interesting thing to examine through an NPC, but I do not think that forcing players of one faction to participate in what is explicitly called a genocide on the other faction is going to lead to this sort of philosophical introspection in the playerbase as a whole.

If you mean, “We knew how things were going to happen as soon as they showed her burning the tree,” then I agree. If you’re saying “There was no way for Sylvanas to be a warchief people could get behind and cheer for,” then I disagree.

Seriously, how were you expecting to be told “You were right to support the person who killed all those children in a pretty gruesome way”? That’s not the kind of imagery that is easy to recontextualize.

I didn’t want to get rid of Vol’jin, but it was possible to have a storyline where becoming warchief improved Sylvanas as a character. They just didn’t write it.

She was also never portrayed as stupid, and the decision as shown in Warbringers was a stupid one. It pointlessly angered the whole Alliance for the sake of sticking it to one mouthy dying Night Elf.

Well, it used to be, and she used to agree.

More later as I work through the thread.

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The same reason why Alliance posters want to stomp the Horde. I wanted the Horde to win the final battle between the Alliance and the Horde. To finally wipe out the other faction.

OR

At the very least turn the tables so that the faction conflict isn’t always with the Alliance having the High ground.

Just like us worgen fans wanted justice against the forsaken, for wiping out both their homes.

As much as I like Sylvanas, there are certain things I want from a worgen player/fan POV. If that makes sense

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Again, I think we run into the primary disagreement here. There is no forcing it into this - it is already there. It is inherently there in the story. It is inherently there in how we experience and relate to the story. It is inherently there in everything we do and experience. There is no forcing an identity politic, it is an analytical tool

To side step the Forsaken for a second, there should be no surprise that many women, particularly those who self identify as feminists or radicals, or both, really find themselves in, or generally can get behind, the Night Elves. Its evident on this very forum. Its a very female forward society that showcases strength and confidence, despite them coming from a male Amazonian power fantasy in bikini armor. There should be no surprise an almost all white, all male, all hetro, all middle class and above, development team, did a less than steller job at portraying North American indigenous peoples in the tauren, Afro-Caribbean (or plainly Jamaican) in the trolls, or a mix of peoples in the orcs, and others who came since to varrying degrees. That is to say little of many of the interactions they put in the game between nations and peoples - Stonespire, Zul’dazar, Lor’themar and Zappy Boi, Varian and Tyrande.

The point - we see, through a lens of identity, how all of these have been poorly handled at least in part due to where the developers and writers come from in their personal lives. That those who wrote those instances, and those who okayed them, did not see the issues inherent in the presentation due to their background.

To slide back to the Forsaken and question at hand, I do not think any of us solely claimed the Forsaken are a queer coded representation due to their outcast nature. None of us rushed to the top of that hill and built a barrier around it. We may have staked a claim, an assertion, that the Forsaken can, and are, read as an allegory or metaphor as queer folks, by queer folks, due to their outcast nature. That many found some sort of familiarity, if not comfort, in Sylvanas as a character due to her position and experiences, her story. But none have said this is the only read one can take. It is a strong one, however, that does have some evidence to back it up now. This is all literary analysis. People will go blue in the face, as we can see and experience here, arguing that analysis. It does not have to be a 1 to 1 comparison for it to assert itself as a good, or useful, allegory or metaphor. That people, and society, also change over time and their perceptions of what is, or is not, X or Y do as well.

It is doubtful that many in 2006 would look at the Forsaken and say “Wow! These outcasts really do act as a representative body for my queerness in game and I feel more connected to them!” because that language and thought was not fully formed. In part, the gay wasnt prayed away yet, but primarily the societal discussion and experience was not shared among its members. 15 years later, and lot more thinking and diving deeper into the story, we are in a far different world and context.

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I don’t think it could be executed in WoW with the limitations of dialogue options, or more accurately the lack of them. I believe that forcing players to commit atrocious acts in story, especially in one that hinges on war between two factions, could be done and could work if the payer also had ways to express their emotions in the game. For example you are forced to commit the genocide but your character having dialogue options during the quest such as “I don’t like this/this feels wrong” or “Yeah this is awesome”. The problem with the narrative was that it lead people to cognitive dissonance because it didn’t feel like their character would be doing this without resisting it to an extend, and not because they committed the act on itself. Take the covenant system for example, players also feel cognitive dissonance because they probably chose the covenant that would provide more performance % than the one they actually liked aesthetically. The problem is that our characters are devoid of personality and we have to either create one from scratch or insert our own into them, and that does not work for the on rails “very complicated” story Blizzard are trying to create. It did work fine for the small self contained quest/zone stories in previous expansions, but it doesn’t work when you are treated as this hero/legend/savior of the universe when you are an chaotic warlock that only does things for her own interests.

I never understood why people who identify with Horde more than Alliance are so fascinated in having the meta moral high ground.

Like does that really matter if it doesn’t reward you for having the moral high ground? Seems more like a curse… I have to be like jesus and turn the cheek everytime because retaliation is wrong! Friendship and love is the answer!

The lack of characters is a real problem and I agree but this moral high ground thing is really not that much fun and it costs a lot to maintain.

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I don’t think she’s someone the majority of people could get behind, which has been the case for 95% of her existence.

Care to explain her large fan base than?

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Her fanbase isn’t the majority of the playerbase, not even the Horde playerbase.

Doesnt detract from the fact that the character has a large following. Which renders you 95% remark pointless

Donald Trump has a large following too.

Donald Trump is a man baby and so are many of his devout followers

Yeah, I agree.

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That is true. After checking more content, I realize I’ve been a bit hard on Bellular in the past; he’s gotten over being a Blizzard shill (though I’m no fan of his lore-takes or sensationalism). My opinion of T&E remains the same.

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Fixed it for you

:rage: How dare you.

Ok here is the issue, you are confusing portraying with taking inspiration from. The tauren are not a portrayal of native americans, the creators took inspiration from that culture but they are not there to represent them.If someone subjectively finds representation in a story its a bonus, it’s not a must, this is something that we have created recently. If you believe that the tauren are not portraying the native americans accurately it’s because they are not native americans, they are bull people that have a whole different backstory, religion and to a degree culture (I say to a degree because it is inspired). The writhers intend was not to portray NA accurately, his intend was “oh those look cool, I will put them in”.

Ahem…

Saying this is ignoring the story and background of the fictional race. There is absolutely a reason why a living person would not want their loved one to turn into an undead. Saying otherwise is ignoring the obvious drawbacks of returning as a decomposing zombie that may or may not lack some of its emotions. senses or moral alignments. But hey if you see NA as bull people and Caribbeans as tusked long nose hunchbacks that’s on you not me.

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They edited my post thinking they were being clever

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Oh I know. I was talking to Evelysaa for doing that.

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