When has that ever stopped the writers from doing something… pissing people off? The whole BfA faction war was a slap into the face for most people involved.
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My personal point of no return on Sylvanas was reached when it became impossible for the 4d Chess scenario to have an outcome that didn’t:
- Make every other NPC in the game appear utterly ignorant and stupid.
- Make the entirety of the (initially overall accepting and loyal) Horde not only the above, but also utterly unworthy of being informed by her of damn near anything at all, even her most blatantly loyal followers.
- Took actions that were so destructive and counter productive (particularly, again to the Horde, because against the Alliance there is at least a veneer of narrative justification) that any “it was all part of my master plan” scenario would be so eye-rollingly cringe that I’d probably get them stuck and have to go to the E.R. Which would be super awkward to explain.
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They did deliberately write her as a villain to both factions for BfA, hated not just by Alliance but by Horde has well. Have you been in Org since 8.2.5? Her loyalists are being paraded around the city in chains and a some who sided with her but renounced her after aren’t exactly being treated well either. Now with this action tearing open the veil between life and death to kill the world?
It just strikes me that any effort at redemption at this point would just seem like a nasty bit of trolling.
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I guess I’m using “redeemed” incorrectly - I meant more, I hated him from the get go (from BFA) and still continue to hate him. Whoops.
I hope it happens 
I love her
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@OP: just stop, please. Obsessive, single-issue posting is ruining this forum. You are a primary culprit. Have you ever offered a constructive post?
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What is wrong this time? Are you saying that I shouldn’t post at all anymore because you don’t like my topics or?..
More than enough, especially those few I made in GD are supposed to reach the writers and change something, I just don’t see what your problem is honestly. It’s not like I’m making a lot of posts currently either.
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I’ll admit I haven’t read all of the books. But the gist of what I got from the one where took a saronite swan dive is that she was trying to save herself from that fate.
It’s never been about what’s best for everyone with Sylvanas. Ever. “Arrows in a quiver”, if memory serves, is how she viewed some high elves that had to die to save something else…and this is back when she had a heartbeat.
Sylvanas is about doing what is best for herself. If everyone else gets saved, whatever. If everyone else dies, whatever.
And that’s what I’m a little wary about. I’m seeing this sentiment where people are saying “she did what she thought was best”. No. Kael’thas did what he thought was best for his people. Daelin did what he thought was best for his people. I would even accept an argument that Garrosh or Zul’jin did what he thought was best for his people. I can even entertain that Prince Arthas’ culling of Stratholme is what he thought was best for his people.
But Sylvanas? No. She’s always looked after herself. She’s an elf Gul’dan. “Oh, things are a little awkward with this army I amassed? Well, whatever, I’ll abandon them.”
What I think really irks me about this character development of Sylvanas? Speaking about from the start, with this cinematic.
Is that for a second? I, as someone who tries to remain relatively neutral in this?
This.
https://media.giphy.com/media/i32vLZTXrnUzkLMAo8/giphy.gif
That was amazing. That actually gave me goosebumps. You have a banshee screaming “FOR THE HORDE”. That had me nodding my head, like, “All right, okay…she doin’ this.” It seemed like maybe - maybe - she was taking this seriously. Maybe the Ranger General was back. Maybe we’d see some actual plot and character development and her - maybe not caring, but at least accepting her role as a leader to–
–you are all nothing. Sigh Yeah, okay, I kind figured. Thanks, Elf’dan.
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Well your right she is really selfish, but in BTS she thinks she is right about life that its worse and from keeping the undead away from reconnecting them she is saving them, she actually thinks she is doing what is best for the forsaken, when she doesnt even understand them, she thinks her feelings about things are everyones elses feelings, those who dont share are wrong.
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Sylvanas’ plan is to usurp the Jailer, same as Azshara’s plan was to usurp N’zoth, that was their mutual goal. One rules the realm of death and never has to worry about dying herself, the other becomes the immortal queen of all Azeroth.
However, Sylvanas more than likely wants to rule as the Jailer did before he was imprisoned, so basically no rivals, a judge for all the souls that come her way. Total freedom from whatever prison she feels she’s trapped in.
I’m calling it now, her fate will be to replace the Jailer… but to be restricted to the Maw as he’s been for the last… tens of thousands of years. It would be the only real way to handle it, where she doesn’t get killed off, she gets something of a resolution, but she also pays for what she’s done more recently. Getting all the power she wanted, no longer needing to fear death ever again, ruling over the hell she saw waiting for her back in Edge of Night, but also eternally trapped in a prison of her own making.
It checks both boxes of redemption and punishment, while also avoiding killing her off.
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Or maybe, it was really her goal all along to destroy the Maw so she can never go there, but then in the end she will be forced to become the ruler of the place she hates and fears the most and stay there forever because “there must always be a Jailer.” Sounds like a fitting end to me.
Josh Brolin gave an interview on Stephen Colbert where he answered a question about why Thanos (movie Thanos, not lovesick for Death comics Thanos) didn’t just double the amount of resources in the universe, instead of wiping out half of existence.
The gist of his answer was that Thanos was a cruel person, and he viewed things through the lens of cruelty. It didn’t even occur to him to come up with a solution that wasn’t…savage.
I think Sylvanas is the same way. She’s arrogant, self-centered, and bitter. So, of course, she thinks everyone is going to have the same reaction that she would. There’s this old saw about the true punishment for a thief/dishonest person doesn’t have anything to do with them getting caught, it’s the fact that they have to live in a world where they believe everyone is as unscrupulous as they are.
I completely get where you’re coming from, and why you would think of this.
I just profoundly don’t want it to happen. I don’t want to find out that after everything she’s done, she ends up being elevated to a seat of power. The whole point (if I understand this) of her trying to not end up there is the fact that she would suffer all kinds of torment and horror…the kind that she wouldn’t suffer if she was the undisputed ruler of such a place.
I mean, she’s arrogant and evil. And the punishment for that is to make her an evil god who gets to dictate what happens to other people?
I want to say that all these things you and other people are being said makes perfect sense. Phenomenal, cosmic power itty-bitty living space. And usually, I’d be like “good”. But Sylvanas is…different. She doesn’t really ever suffer any setbacks*. It’s always part of her master plan, or a minor inconvenience, or part of this or that.
I don’t want that to just be what happens in the end. It doesn’t feel like anything was worth anything. She was just a comically imbalanced fanfic character througout, unabashedly evil, screwed everyone over (including people who remained loyal to her), openly admitted it, and she still ends up accomplishing her goal.
It makes it seem like all of the other characters are just useless. And our own characters. We’re just here to witness her dark apotheosis. It would feel - to me - more than a bit insulting.
** With the exception of Genn in Stormheim, which was probably my favorite cinematic in that expansion. That is the only time Sylvanas has ever been at a loss for words: When she got outplayed in politics and strategy by an actual king.
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No setbacks. Really???
She was killed, turned into a banshee and relentlessly tortured by Arthas. She was shot and killed by Lord Godfrey. As you mentioned, Genn destroyed her lantern. She was winning the battle for Lordaeron when Jaina shows up on a sparkling magical flying boat with arcane cannons that blasts away the Lordaeron wall. Baine totally spoils her plans to use Derek as a sleeper against Jaina. Saurfang decides to turn traitor on her and also leaves her with a nasty facial scar.
I’d call all of those pretty significant setbacks. You may interpret them as being only “minor inconvenience[s]” because she doesn’t give up. She reassesses her plans, adapts and keeps on striving towards her goals. An admirable trait you would actually want in a leader.
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A more admirable trait in a leader would be not discarding their people for their plans.
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Let’s wait and see what happens in the Shadowlands before we jump to that conclusion.
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“The Horde is Nothing!” is the tagline of the next book.
Though I guess everyone was right when they said Sylvanas can’t kill hope.
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She could have been speaking metaphorically. Knowing what she knows about the afterlife and the vast whole other universe of the Shadowlands, the pettiness of the Horde’s honor could very well be insignificant in the grand scheme.
Heck, even Saurfang started questioning the validity of the Horde near the end.
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Luckily Lor’themar and Baine still saw the Horde’s worth and have helped reform it.
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Sounds like someones EXPECTATIONS need a SUBVERSION!
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Heavens! A scar! That’s horrific! Think of the horror she’s gone through!
I’m being facetious, because, well, like, seriously?
No, let me be fair. I should specify that I’m talking about World of Warcraft Sylvanas; specifically post Cataclysm. When she just started going full tilt baby stew crazy.
But, to address what you brought up.
-
Genn destroyed her lantern. Yes. What was she doing with it? Enslaving a race of people to become immortal? I don’t think she was doing anything wholesome.
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Jaina showed up and destroyed the walls. This was…after she set Teldrassil on fire, specifically knowing it was full of civilians? Cool.
Notice how she had still already had Blight bombs in place to destroy the city, because she somehow knew that they’d get through? Part of her plan all along.
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Baine totally spoils her plans to use Derek as a sleeper agent. That was a plan that didn’t work, not a significant setback. And Baine almost died for that. Because she knew it was him.
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Saurfang decides to turn traitor. You know what? I was tempted to think this was maybe a moderate setback, but then I remembered that it didn’t really change anything. The only thing that caused her to lose anything was her losing her temper, and saying that the army she had assembled was nothing.
And that’s the point I’m getting it. I called the minor inconveniences, because nothing ever really happens to her. She always gets away, every time, she always has some back-up plan, she always is 10 steps ahead of everyone else. There are no consequences to these failures. She doesn’t really suffer any significant losses. She got a single scar in a place that she already had scars when fighting against one of the best natural Fighters Azeroth has ever known. She also killed him in one hit.
A leader leads. She doesn’t do that. But it’s especially disappointing given her history as a ranger General, and history in leading The Forsaken. She can lead, she just chooses not to.
This is painful to watch because they took what could have been a tragic, beautiful character and turned her into Snidely Whiplash.
Did you do the quest where you turn in the locket? And Sylvanas weeps about what’s happened to her? How she sent aid to the Ghostlands because she knows that she was once an elf? That she still is?
That’s who I wants to see. I need some point of weakness, some measure of humility, some indication of suffering. A sliver of humanity to show that there is a difference between her and the scourge. Between her and arthas. That this strong character held on to who she was. I wanted her to not let the tragedy she suffered Define her. I wanted to see her struggle against letting it twist her into a monster.
But I got Elf’dan.
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