Sylvanas: Is she naive or has she just lost hope?

Why? Because from that first Anduin-Sylvie talk she genuinely seemed to believe the BS she was spouting. That “Through the Jailor anything is possible”, and she was elated by that. That is not the sign of someone who believes the Jailor is responsible for her hell, or the Arbiter system she’s actively ripping to pieces is innocent. Plus, her getting tricked by a false narrative is something she’s done a ton of times her own victims; and weirdly gives her more agency than a “strongarmed” narrative. As she would be free with how she chose to operate of that narrative, and thus has more accountability for her actions.

There is also the chance for her to get long overdue Karma when the truth that the reason she turned herself into Arthas was a god damned lie. Which … god she deserves.

It’s the way I interpreted both conversations with Anduin, with her weird fixation on making people serve (or trying to convince him to flip on his own first) and the whole reverse psychology bit about Sylvanas trying to kill off her own hope through everyone else.

Given that Sylvanas is both a gigantic control freak and has severely bad trust issues in general where it’s come back to bite her with both Saurfang and her sisters, the idea that suddenly she’s going to naively trust the jailer of all people seems like even worse writing than before. Which isn’t off the table, but still.

Like, she watches how callously the jailer discards Denathrius and doesn’t seem to flinch at that. She has to already know she’s just as disposable in his eyes. And it doesn’t contradict the whole “Shadowlands is flawed” if she believes it, because the fact that the jailer was able to nab her soul in the first place is proof enough of that.

What are the chances that she came to terms with the Zovaal snatching her to the Maw, or w/e it was, and is has changed her motivation completely to what we currently know?

Edit: Cdev has so much wiggle room when it comes to their experience together.

Edit: Also were people sense Sylvanas is uneasy about Sire D, I don’t. I feel like she already knows the Jailer will do what he needs to do even if that is killing her and using her soul for soil.

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[citation needed]

Edge of Night.

https://youtu.be/9UKVXoEceaU

The Arbiter wasn’t even a thing until Shadowlands was announced. Has something come out in Shadowlands saying that she was arbitrated into the maw?

:pancakes:

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So this is a bit of a point of confusion for me.

After the defeat of the Lich King, Sylvanas committed suicide. The Val’kyr took Sylvanas’ soul into “limbo” before her eventual destination. The 9 Val’kyr were shieldmaidens who unwillingly served the Lich King and they showed her visions of the future of the Forsaken under Garrosh. They were being slaughtered in combat as Garrosh saw them as expendable. Some were even jumping into bonfires to prevent being captured and executed. She told them she had made her choice and she didn’t care.

Annhylde raised a hand to quiet her younger sister-in-arms. “Hush, Agatha. She does not know. She must see more.” The Val’kyr leader directed her luminous green eyes to Sylvanas, their edges rimmed with sadness. “Sylvanas Windrunner, the oblivion you seek is yours. We will not stop you.”

Annhylde’s eyes closed, and at once the figures vanished into their faceless spectral forms.

Then Sylvanas felt herself being pulled away, her senses reeling. Everything disappeared, and time stopped.

“She is lost!” Agatha wailed.

From there she fell into the Maw. She saw only darkness. Then she felt her soul as a whole for the first time since she was raised, but only to feel agony, to suffer pain, cold, hopelessness, and fear. She even felt Arthas there - which fits since after his death Uther tossed him into the Maw. He was a “scared little blond child, reaping the aftermath of a lifetime of mistakes.” Then others began gleefully tormenting her, tearing at her consciousness, and delighting in her suffering.

The Val’kyr arrived in the Maw then and offered her a choice.They wanted freedom from the Lich King and wanted to serve someone who understood life and death; someone who understood light and darkness. They bound themselves to her so that she would live as long as they live.

Then things got tied to Shadowlands. The Lich King, through the Helm of Domination, actually served the Jailer, so by a transitive property the Val’kyr served the Jailer. According to the devs, Sylvanas’ pact occurs during Edge of Night (the story above) and it would seem that the Jailer used the Val’kyr to court Sylvanas. It’s not really clear when Sylvanas knew of the Jailer himself, so her pact may have been of a transitive nature initially.

This doesn’t cause any big issues. But it does raise the question of what actually happened to Sylvanas. Uther, as a Kyrian, broke bad by tossing Arthas into the Maw (instead of dropping him off for the Arbiter to judge). It’s unclear if the Val’kyr did the same or if she was simply dropped to the Arbiter who judged her fate. It’s likely the former simply because very few were ever sentenced to the Maw, and even fewer directly to the Maw (but we really don’t know).

In the cinematic “No More Lies” - she begins to explain her rationale:

  • “You know the truth. Nothing is fair, not life, not death.”
  • “We’re breaking a system that has always been flawed and remaking it into one that is just.”
  • “From our first breath, to our last, every decision is made for us. Then the afterlife decides what eternity we must endure. We can’t even choose who we…”
  • “We’ve never had free will little lion, but that is about to change.”

Some have speculated she was going to say “who we love” but I think it is “who we serve.” At this point my position regarding Sylvanas upsets Night Elf fans. She was a Ranger-General who died in combat defending her home. Then, against her will, she was raised into undeath to serve the Lich King. Her soul was imperfectly attached to her body limiting her feelings and emotions. After breaking from his control, she sought her vengeance against his evil and got it, before deciding to be done with this world. In death, she was sent to the Maw (an eternity in hell), unless she agreed to a pact with the Val’kyr. She literally didn’t have the freedom to kill herself.

From her point of view, I would absolutely agree this is a broken system. People may argue that it’s broken because the Jailer broke it - which is fair as an outsider. He’s responsible for the Lich King. But that fact doesn’t change her reality. She spent a lifetime living a “good” life, followed by a lifetime of tortured undeath forced upon her, which would be followed by being forced into an eternity of torment. It doesn’t change the reality that the system is susceptible to being broken so easily that Uther grabbed a soul and dropped it in the Maw.

Sylvanas doesn’t appear to be naive. She watches the Jailer craft Shalamourne and she knows what he’s responsible for. She offers Anduin the choice to join their cause or be made to serve and Anduin rightly points out it is a choice she never had, but he has no idea about the depths of it. Sylvanas’ only hope - at this point - is to find a way to destroy the system (one way or another) that has stolen every bit of free will from her. If the Jailer wins, then the system is remade. The new system could be better or it could be worse (likely worse, but I’m not exactly much of a fan of the current system). If the Jailer loses, then the system continues but hopefully without the Jailer able to exercise power.

Either way, perhaps she’ll have the chance to do something, anything, of her own volition.

The only way it seems she “lost hope” is she has lost hope that the status quo is sustainable.

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Sylvanas is just mad she got sent to the Maw. For some reason she felt like she deserved better, she’s deranged enough to believe herself to be worthy of something more, when in reality she got exactly what she deserved. And now she’s trying to justify herself by saying everyone lives to serve themselves, trying to drag everyone else down to her level.
She’s a petulant child throwing a cosmic tantrum because as it turns out actions do have consequences.

I bet all the Night Elves that died at Teldrassil are mad as well.

:pancakes:

Most are only grateful, some want justice, it goes in par with the course of you know… being saved of eternal torture and damnation i believe you just feel so thankful it overrides all else.

the rest of nelf souls are obliterated thus cant feel.

forsaken nelves still mad or depressed tho.

I’m sensing a little hostility there.

So you’re of the viewpoint that when Sylvanas committed suicide - after the defeat of the Lich King - she was deserving of going directly to the Maw? Why?

Few souls were ever sent directly into the Maw with the worst being given a chance to atone in Revendreth. Kael’thas aligned himself and his people with the Burning Legion and attempted to summon Kil’jaeden to Azeroth. Garrosh was a xenophobic tyrant who extolled the virtue of wholesale slaughter of people. Both of them are in Revendreth. Lady Vashj tried to control the water supply of Outlands to control the populace in service to … let’s just go with Illidan … she’s in Maldraxxus. Heck, Uther broke the rules of the Shadowlands and tossed a soul straight into the Maw without judgment (which may have literally destroyed Arthas and done so unfairly since he wasn’t entirely in control of his actions). As far as I’m aware we don’t have an example of anyone being judged and sent directly to the Maw.

I do believe she’s angry she ended up in the Maw because once more she was stuck serving another master, threatening her with even more torment unless she complied. I absolutely think she’s bitter, jaded, and fed up with a system that has repeatedly forced her to serve. She was raised into the curse of undeath and forced to serve the Lich King. Once she escaped and avenged this violation, she tried to escape the misery that was her undeath, only to be snatched into eternal torment, unless she served another master. Of course she wants to burn this system to the ground - it’s been nothing but cruel to her and from her experiences it’s been pretty cruel to plenty of others (she emphasizes the lack of fairness and justice to Anduin).

I took note of the phrase “through the Jailer” - not with the Jailer - in her speech to Anduin. Through the machinations of the Jailer there’s an opportunity for them to make something about this system change. I don’t think she’s playing some “5d chess” game, but I think she really is just trying to get to the confrontation part of this game.

If the Jailer wins, the system will be remade into something else, and while it’ll likely be worse (though that’s not definitive) her experience with the current system has been pretty awful, so at the very least she can destroy that. If the Jailer loses, then she won’t have to serve him any longer and may finally have some respite from her suffering - even if she’s completely destroyed in the process (which seems pretty likely).

My take-away is something different altogether and something that I don’t think is going to be popular. The way Sylvanas is acting around Anduin, how she is trying to rationalize everything while being vague about her own motivations and hopes - I think it’s all just a way she’s trying to preserve some sense of freewill that does not actually exist.

I think they are basically retconning it to say that Sylvanas does not have a choice but to serve the Jailer, and perhaps has been serving him since Warcraft 3. Her being partners with him is a lie, and not a lie the Jailer has told her but rather a lie Blizzard told the players.

It’s how Blizzard can have their cake and eat it too - Yes Sylvanas was a villain all along, but also no she wasn’t actually responsible for her actions. She’s been a weapon of the Jailer - first pointed at his disobedient tool the Lich King, and later reigned in and used more directly after her suicide that brought her directly to the Maw without the Arbiter’s judgement.

The Jailer has a unique power of dominion over the dead, a power that the dead find unsettling. It’s powerful enough in Azeroth when channeled through the helm of domination, but in his direct presence I think the dead have no choice but to obey his every command. From the moment she came into his presence, Sylvanas’s will was no longer her own.

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we don’t know how or why Sylvanas ended up in the Maw. Her actions, regardless of how cruel, did not warrant her to be judged deserving of the Maw… we know that based on the sinstones of what people did that made them deserving of Revendreth and some of those things are far more terrible than anything Sylvanas has ever done. There was one sinstone of a guy who destroyed a whole planet, one of a woman who commited genocide, one of a mother who murdered her child… if those people can be sent to Revendreth to atone then so can Sylvanas. Garrosh ended up in Revendreth after all, even after everything he’s done.

Nothing there. The cinematic has a general statement about how it is suppose to work (and the case of Arthas shows it can be circumvented). The Edge of Night has no references to either the Arbiter or the Jailer at all.

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My guess is Anduin Wrynn becomes the new Custodian, not Jailor that has ties to both the Shadowlands abd Azeroth.

He values choice, whereas Nerzhul and the Jailor, well don’t…

Wouldn’t it be fantastic if a dying soul could effectively choose where they do/don’t wish to go after mortal death? Instead of unilateral decisions by a selfless automoton? Such as ancestor ghosts choosing to become, or affiliate itself as a or to a Loa/Keeper?

All cultures of the spiritual world in human history have Ancestor Worship.

Would not the choice to help only your progeny/living legacy be an option instead of furthering the whims of self-promoted/appointed Soul Crucibles that prop up regimes across four despots/Know-it-alls?

There are just four choices? Or recruitment by the Naaru? Dreadlords? Legion? Old gods?! The Jailor?! Helya?

You guys catching the basically cornered choices facing a person who has seemingly witnessed “this is it” oblivion first-hand? Everyone wants their own empire. And let’s not forget Xalatath, too. Wanting to harness undeath as a deterrent against all of the terrible things facing their franchise’s core focus, with Anduin Wrynn as both Lich King/Custodian (NOT Jailor…) That would probably stem Sylvanas’ nihilism/fatalism. Because Anduin has a big bleeding heart and he respects choice.

Neither, she’s just a badly written character.

So 9 months later, after the necro…

No - Sylvanas didnt stab Anduin in the face.

I was so optimistic back then.

I haven’t bought into the jailer’s schtick, but the afterlife is unfair. You get sorted by a robot called the arbiter to be an anima battery, or a war zombie (why?) Or a mind erased slave angel, or to tend the regeneration pods of wild-gods.

I’m pretty sure I remember this thread being bigger than this. It seems like a tiny thread in hindsight. This was back in the day when most threads would get over 1K replies… especially Sylvanas threads.

Which is a punishment/redemptive therapy (“Repent, ye sinners, and ye shall yet be saved!”)

For those who loved War most of all in life and want to fight forever, since as zombie they can’t really ever die again; even the weakest will end up going to the House of Constructs (who represent a literal form of ‘Strength From Unity’) and get stitched together into an abomination.

Ignoring the fact that Bastion only receives the most altruistic souls to begin with this is actually the closest to actually being a flaw in the system, since a total memory/personality purge should not be necessary, but it’s instituted to prevent kyrians from acting on living prejudices and putting their own judgement over the Will of the Arbiter (as Uther did by yeeting Arthas into the Maw due to personnel hatred instead of trusting she’d do that herself/anting to deny him the chance to go to Revendreth for possible redemption)

For those who loved tending nature most of all in life.

And there are functionally infinite afterlives we don’t get to see where things are presumably going just fine with everyone in them happy forever doing whatever it is that makes them happy forever.

I’ve seen literally nothing in Shadowlands that suggests that there is any actual problem with the system as is. Everything going wrong is purely the result of bad actors breaking things on purpose for the sake of their own personnel power.

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