But that was after kerrigan was defeated, depowered and experienced severe ptsd from what she had done as the queen of blades. not exactly what i’d call vindicated.
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She still killed billions and never had to answer for any of it, is my point.
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I hope if she lives one of her many victims throws her in the deepest, darkest hole in the maw. If I were Blizzard I’d even set it up to make it look like they’re going for a rehash of their redemptions before she gets shot in the back and taken down.
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That I can get behind 100%
Would be even funnier if it was Godfrey who puts another shotgun round in the back of her head 
I was picturing more Tyrande’s faction of the Alliance come in and interrupting Anduin’s pacifism by skewering her and dragging her, weapon and all, to the edge of the abyss before throwing her in.
“Killing me won’t bring them back.”
“I don’t intend to kill you.”
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I will say I disagree with these statements. I could go on a lengthy rant with a few choice words about it… but I will try to keep it short.
I do not think Sylvanas Haters have a monopoly on being invested in the story or caring about it. People who want to see Sylvanas redeemed, proven right, or even out right victorious are as likely to care about the lore as any Night Elf, Troll, or Goblin fan.
Dismissing those who disagree as simply not caring or having less investment seems… a miscalculation at best.
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Can we have it so it’s Pappa Genn who’s the one who actually yeets her over the edge though? Because your idea does sound cool.
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That’s fair. Though in this case Sylvanas fans find themselves at an unfortunate crossroads where in order to get that redemption and validation, it will likely have to come completely at the expense and invalidation of everyone opposing her. By proving her right, the NE players deserved to have their favorite race cremated. By proving her right, you prove “The Horde is Nothing”. By proving her right, you’re stating attempted omnicide is OK. All just for Sylvanas.
No character redemption that is so hinged on devaluing everything else is worth it. I’m sorry, its not. Though, that likely wont stop them from trying to do something similar with Arthas. As for my argument … I personally just took issue with people using her “popularity” as a justification why she NEEDS to be redeemed. Its the same argument that got shoved down my throat for why my favorite character needed to die for her to become warchief. Its awful.
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I have to say I don’t even care anymore at this point.
Of course I want to know how it will all end, but frankly, if Sylvanas gets killed or redeemed or whatever won’t make much of a difference to me. The damage is already done, to her character, and to my faction, and it is irreversible one way or another.
I’m quite sure whatever “conclusion” we get will be as far-fetched and unsatisfactory as the whole bfa story was, and if she really does die, I just hope it doesn’t come along with an Arthas redemption because that would really be godawful.
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Sure why not. He’s probably got the most personal beef with her.
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I do not think the options are so stark. And even if they are, that may be Blizzard’s goal. If Sylvanas being right is so striking that it could be the catalyst for… anything… that seems to be an opening.
There is a saying: “When God closes a door, he opens a window.” Well, Sylvanas has the ability to smash through walls like the Kool Aid Man. To the Maw with God or Gods. Tossing aside these disgusting semblances of order seems in her Character. What Blizzard does with such a sledgehammer of a Character, we shall see. But if anyone can usher in a new age in gameplay, it is Sylvanas.
What is the Horde, when it needs salvation from the Alliance High King? A client state of it’s own making. To call it nothing was a compliment. Even Saurfang griped about the Horde’s purpose to Anduin - and Anduin equated his Alliance to the Horde. Sylvanas could very well be right that they are all nothing as they are. And they may need to reevaluate a great many things.
It depends on the purpose and execution. I would not rule out the prospect on principle alone.
I would hate to see an Arthas redemption of ANY sort. But… Anduin did claim him as Alliance. What if he got an Alliance only redemption, and Sylvanas got a Horde only redemption. I would not mind that.
I really like the idea of a humbled Sylvanas defending Quelthalas for the Horde against the Alliance - led by Arthas and Alleria. It would make for a spectacle, to be sure.
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Can I ask … why is it so important that she be redeemed that you’d risk destroying everything about the Faction she deliberately never represented? This character who’s greatest power has always been plot-convenience, and who probably wouldn’t get forgiven so readily if she looked like Voss?
Honestly, the only possible way that I can even fathom to “redeem” Sylvanas is to get her back on the revenge track she operates so well on. Just like she has treated oh so many people herself, have her be an unwitting tool for the Jailor. She may be even attempting to just use and discard him, but he’ll do it first. Have it revealed that her afterlife was a Lie. That what truly condemned her to that eternity in hell was her own actions to avoid it. Finally, have him discard her like the “nothing” she is … and then she can at least go out on a vengeance high. Trying to take down the being that pushed her to become the Lich King. You want “redemption” … she’s gotta suffer immeasurably for it; and she should not be made part of the Horde again afterwards.
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I’m not saying people who like Sylvanas like the story less or care less about it. I am saying that even if you love Sylvanas her being redeemed would foul up the story even more. I am speaking objectively when I say it wouldn’t be able to be handled well. Based on how Blizzard wrote her descent into evil they simply didn’t provide themselves narrative space to make her redemption believable or worthwhile.
Maybe you like Sylvanas enough that you’re willing to overlook the horrible writing that’d lead up to her redemption, and that would be fine. You do you. But for all but the most die hard Sylvanas fans? Well, we may as well quit at that point.
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It always comes to “you like Sylvanas so much!” I mean, she is the topic.
I like Muradin, Malfurion, and Voljin a lot more than her. I like Rezan a lot more than Sylvanas. I made a post a while back about Voljin riding Rezan to save the day, and Rezan biting Sylvanas in half. I can separate my opinion of a Character from what Blizzard can do with the Character.
I never saw myself as a Sylvanas fan, so much as I can align with some of her positions. She uses the truth for her foul deeds, but she is still speaking the truth. She was right about the Alliance’s rampant warmongering. She was right about the hatreds that seethed across the Races. She was right that the Afterlife needs to be dealt with, and that our current concerns were mere triflings in preparation for what comes next. She gives voice to truths that most ignore.
That may be the point. The Faction you describe had a Warchief. That has changed. I am not so averse to change, especially when given good reason.
Sylvanas can leave Shadowlands while being right, but also humbled. She could be right about the Alliance aggression towards the Horde, and be right about the state of the Afterlife, but also be humbled, in that her plan failed, while the Champions of Azeroth succeeded.
I guess on these forums, the notion is considered toxic. Or “waifu grey boobs”.
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At the start of BFA i thought they will remove her. Now i think she was safe from the start and they have planed her way out, we’ll see.
Not at all. The issue is she’s gone so far, that the idea that she’d get redeemed without it coming entirely at the expense of every single principle and character that opposes her seems very remote. You cannot validate her, without invalidating everyone she’s hurt. And to successfully even attempt it would rely on walking a nuanced line that BfA clearly shows Blizz is incapable of. Nuance, especially the kind that would be required to do what you’re suggesting, is far beyond their abilities.
So, we reach our conclusion. You want a “redemption”, you don’t validate her. You don’t expect humility to be the response from someone you just proved right for attempted omnicide. You need to prove her wrong. That the world she’s convinced she truly sees as is, was really a vision of the world she was only convinced was the truth. To get her to move in the direction that was convenient for another; a tactic she has several times used against others. After all, you cannot redeem a character who does not seek redemption, and a Sylvie proven right here will see no need to need it. And even this ideal humbling situation where she is “redeemed” in the end, she should not be allowed back into the Horde. They should never trust her again.
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Many posters, myself included, have gotten whiffs of a possible redemption for Arthas, Garrosh, and Kaelthas. There is nothing preventing it, other than the whims of the Devs. It is as possible as anything, and seems more probable as the lore is revealed.
Previously, AU Grom led the Horde after WoD until Yrel came calling. He didn’t suffer much. He was imprisoned by the Legion and treated mean… but he led the AU Maghar afterward. Even MU Grom was given a second chance in the Horde. And Illidan happened.
I just don’t see how people can rule out any Sylvanas redemption, or a future role for her in the Horde, given the context of the lore.
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Garrosh shows no indication that he’s on the brink of redemption, unless it is allowed to feed into Thrall’s story. He’s essentially so prideful in that cinematic he’s being used as an arrogance anima battery. Keal clearly is getting some form of redemption. Arthas will probably get a redemption. Lets assume that all 3 of these characters get some sort of redemption story, y’know what they have in common? They’re all dead, and not just “Undead”. They’ve all also been put through the ringer and tortured like crazy for their evil, so they were also punished. Ruthlessly. So … the expectation for a Sylvie redemption with all she’s done is she either DIES for it, or she gets punished proportionally. Right? And while AU Grom may be still alive, if he is, he’s getting super light tortured. And even he was someone who was manipulated into doing a lot of what he did through his KJ surrogate of son from the Future.
Sylvanas turned the entire Horde and her Forsaken into a tool for genocide to invest both sides into a massive world war to create as large a death toll on both sides as possible. Feeding all of those souls who died (save for those Bwon is protecting) into the Maw, the very eternity she herself has been avoiding. Then she abandoned them all, which she suggests was premature to what she would have preferred. And considering the three you just compared her to both died AND were super punished for their chance at redemption … is she exempt from this common theme?
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I’m pretty neutral on the subject of Sylvanas redemption or not (I can’t see any possible end to her story that I’d actually enjoy). But as far as I’m concerned, the Horde is already destroyed. They’ve turned it into something that just isn’t the faction I originally joined.
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My immediate counter point is:
Sylvanas’s first death and her subsequent torture by Arthas.
Kaelthas, Garrosh, and Arthas all met their end after their cruel reigns. Sylvanas met her death and torture in defense of Quelthalas. She has been killed and seen the cruelty of death, and Undeath. She is not exempt. She has been through it.
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