That’s still a big, fat “nope” from me. She makes everyone else around her progressively more stupid so her hand-wringingly evil shenanigans go unnoticed or undisturbed.
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I’m American, and I don’t even approve of the nukes we used in WW2, so…no.
I don’t believe in killing civilians in war, no matter what the reasoning is.
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That was a lot of words to get at
it’s whether she makes the story better.
and no, she doesn’t rn. And it’s not like in either incarnation, pre-BFA or present, that she’s above criticism/reproach. Unfortunately there is no way to make the Forsaken not-evil in their quest for self-preservation and frankly it’s really stupid that that was the cross Blizzard assigned to that race since it can only be resolved in a few ways.
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I can honestly say I haven’t seen much of the type of behavior you’re describing here. I suspect this is a bit of a combination of slightly trollish behavior and maybe expressions of frustration at the anti-Sylvanas mood of the current storyline.
There is no doubt that the Banshee Queen’s government is a stereotypical Cult of Personality style regime. The Night Elves are a theocratic form of government and similarly suppress individuality and violently repress what they view as heresy. Both styles of government have real-world analogues. Both can be said to be inherently morally problematic, it’s just easier to see it in Undercity because the aesthetic motif of the Undead are what we traditionally associate with “evil.” What frustrates some of us is that this problematic-ness is only ever addressed or called-out on the Horde side.
Even though I support Sylvanas as a character, I agree with this. I think this is chalked up to poor writing. For example, I believe Saurfang and Baine and the other Horde leaders have been written terribly in this expansion. Baine should have been pitching a fit the second he learned about the War of Thorns, and he should never have been willing to murder Horde soldiers, undead or otherwise.
It’s almost like they wrote the expansion and they wrote the pre-expansion War of Thorns scenario completely isolated from each other. Either way it’s not Sylvanas’s fault that Blizzard has written themselves into a corner here.
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Blizzard can’t seem to make up its mind about how “modern” WOW morality is. The Roman’s would have been impressed at how much more efficient the Burning of Teldrasil was than their destruction of Carthage. Yet, Blizzard also has a novel with a modern war crimes like trail.
Baine should have been pitching a fit the second he learned about the War of Thorns
Not saying that I disagree with you, but I am curious why?
If we are operating under the clause that the Warchief’s decision is final, why should he have object to the WoT?
It’s not exclusive to Horde characters, either. Anduin, supported by Genn Greymane (whose country was practically doused in Blight), failed to come up with proper contingencies for the possibility that the Banshee Queen (who was ruthless enough to torch all of Teldrassil) might unleash the Blight all over the battlefield with her troops still on it.
If anyone in the lore of World of Warcraft says something to the extent of “I can’t believe she’d go this far” while referring to Sylvanas Windrunner ever again, they’re an ignoramus of the highest order.
For many reasons really: 1) the long-standing ties between the Night Elves and Tauren in the form of the Cenarion Circle 2) the general inclination of Tauren toward peaceful resolution over continued violence 3) Baine’s history of favoring the Alliance over the Horde 4) Baine being excluded from the planning of the campaign should have pissed him off on a personal level. Teldrassil should have been much more meaningful to Baine than Derek Proudmoore.
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So you would rather have thousands more of your country men killed, as they hopped from island to island on their way to mainland Japan?
To think that war can be clean without civilian casualties, especially on the scale of ww2, is naive. There was no happy ending to that part in history, only that it ended, thanks to America.
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In a real world scenario, I’d agree that this would be the case but it has been increasingly shown that the Alliance and Horde are quite detached from the other factions. Especially in their squabbles with each other; they are more like 2 political blocs as opposed to actual nations/alliances.
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Yes, I agree completely. But Blizzard throws there worldbuilding out at first chance at the expense of pushing characters and rule-of-cool moments.
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Sorry, not seeing this in-game whatsoever. If this is a supplementary material thing, then I’ll give it to ya. But getting tired of seeing him labelled an Alliance sympathizer based on game events. He takes most emotional umbrage at Zelling’s slaying in the cinematic, for instance.
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Yeah, again I agree, but Blizzard is terrible at storytelling. Kind of insane how much better GW2 is for instance - and they juggle multiple characters, too.
What do you mean about Teldrassil though? The Tauren might have a reverence for the NE, but in wartime, all is fair game. From my understanding, the decision to torch it was never planned…
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I appreciate your response and I agree for the most part, but I do want to quibble slightly with you, with no intention of derailing the thread. Baine is definitely portrayed as being quite sympathetic toward the Alliance in media outside of the game (the debate of whether anything outside of the game should hold weight is valid, but that’s where Blizzard currently stands on the issue). For my part taking umbrage at killing Zelling, who is most assuredly not a Forsaken, after having murdered Dark Rangers loyal to the Horde for the last 15 real-life years is definitely an in-game example of Baine’s Alliance bias. Zelling is a Kul’Tiran after all.
As to your point about Teldrassil, I meant to say War of Thorns there. The War of Thorns should have been Baine’s breaking point, not Derek Proudmoore.
Thousands more soldiers instead of MILLIONS of innocent people? Yes.
Perhaps, but you can at least, ya know, not do it intentionally.
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I am not sure you know how war works
Ideally, it should be avoided at all costs, but in the even that it does occur, the objective is to minimize your own causalities and maximize the enemies.
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Silky smooth complexion? Eye-catching makeup? Contour to die for? Corpse or no, Sylvie is a top-10 waifu no doubt ; )
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Wars work however the people who fight them decide they work.
And if you think one of your own lives is just worth an infinite amount of your enemies lives(which, enemy civilians are not even your actual enemies), then, well, you clearly don’t value human life in general.
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Aside from Illidan,Kael’thas and Arthas, Sylvanas is my favorite character in warcraft as a whole, why? cuz I can identify myself with most of the things she suffered ( not in the same way or context) and I can understand her reasons and motives to act like she does, cuz guess what? she is not perfect nor a shinning knight that can save the day with just a shout ‘’ FOR THE ALLIANCE!’’…
Let me give you an example… she defended her homeland as best she could with the resources she had and still failed, have you never been in a situation that you tried your best and still it was not enough? and afterward you had to work or ‘‘live’’ with the guy that made you failed or lose? the anger, the desire for vengeance( even its just to see he having a headache with something you are good at, like math or english class?)
She tried to make amends with her Sister V, and in the last minute she was betrayed yet again and have her hopes crushed in front of her… I’ve endured situations like that, that I trusted someone with all my heart and still I was left disappointed, cold, with only my rage to sustain my through that situation…
Of course I’ll not act like a baby and going to kill everything in my path but you get what I mean, that I can identify with some situations, some reactions and even some actions she made, or kael’thas or even Arthas.
you see they’re not the same cuz this is a Magical world, with ppl with horns,wings, hoofs that demons,angels,aliens, titans,elements and nature all can meet each other for a drink at the bar… and death has no real meaning since everyone can be brought back with the right magical world or priest.
so its pointless to compare a character that lives in a world like that, to ours, since we don’t really know what happens next,every moment can be our last, so we are careful when taking actions, there are no magical bubbles to save you from a bullet.
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Eh maybe it’s just me. I’d rather have a living girl. Or at least one whose only appeal wasnt just eye candy. I mean if Sylvannas looked like, say, a deadite her fan base would be a lot smaller. Which kinda diminishes her as a character to me
I don’t think this is a very fair question, to be honest. We have no real world counterparts to the situation with Sylvanas at all. Every war ever fought was between humans, and ended by humans. That connection, of being the same species, ultimately allowed for those wars to be ended. The two largest wars in history were ended, ultimately, because every side involved was made up of humans who did want peace.
Sylvanas’ and the Horde’s methods, which are quite frankly one and the same, do have some real world counterparts, sure, but the contexts and situations don’t and frankly if translated to the real world would be much harder to justify. The Horde is comprised of two flavors of alien warmongers who nearly wiped out an entire race in separate realities, money obsessed inventors who destroy any nature they get their mitts on, literal undead zombies who don’t even need the lands they take, because they’re dead, and the rest of the member races who either help out or let things happen. And who have flip flopped in terms of peace, I might add, all in the space of less than five years.
It’s an unfair question to ask because Sylvanas’ ‘methods’ make no sense in the context of the real world, and neither do the Alliance’s that help perpetuate the wars by not actually closing their grip on the Horde when they have the chance.
Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl.
When the video game becomes real life.
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I am also genuinely curious, the main Facebook group for World of Warcraft is very pro-Horde and anti-Alliance, and Sylvanas seems to have quite a few vocal fans there.
Reminds me a bit of that controversy years ago regarding a video game, I think, where the player can go around randomly killing…people who aren’t adults. How much controversial content from reality should fantasy generally portray?