Well original forsaken opening gave one a sense that the forsaken and their mistress where not to be trusted, that they intended to kill all who stood in the way of the new world order. Plus every leader was originally very mistrustful of her, except for Cairne who was the forsaken biggest advocate.
that all changed in Cata. Post Cata Sylvanas was working towards redemption. Even Pre-Cata Sylvanas was justified because she had a singular goal of wiping out Arthas and the Scourge.
Pre-Cata was one dimensional, on a vengeance quest.
Post-WoLK Sylvanas is/was multidimensional.
She still is but people just don’t want to see that for whatever reason.
That’s a slippery slope with giving justification to someone, since her original goal wasn’t to kill Arthas out of a sense of duty to the world but out of revenge. A story that mirrors Arthas’ own as she went to great and terrible lengths to ensure her revenge could be achieved, even going so far as to threaten Lor’themar that she would pull forsaken aid in the ghost lands if they didn’t participate in the northrend campaign. And this was immediately after they fought a civil war against Karl’thas, so she was more then willing to let more of her former people die to satisfy her selfish lust for vengeance.
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do you think Tyrande is justified?’
What’s the difference between Tyrande and Sylvanas? Jaina and Sylvanas?
The only difference was there was no one to talk Sylvanas off the ledge. Tyrande and Jaina have people who care enough to tell them to stop when they are going too far.
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In her revenge? Depends on the persons outlook, everyone in Warcraft to me has justification even Arthas. I was merely stating it’s a slippery slope, and I understand you like Syls character not trying to attack you for it.
Everyone except Sylvanas you mean.
everyone in Warcraft to me has justification even Arthas
Can I ask you, even with the clear parallels to Arthas, how can you justify Arthas but not Sylvanas? (not attacking just an honest question)
If that’s your take away sure, let me ask you this. Was she justified in kidnapping Koltira Deathweaver of the Ebon blade and attempting to break him of his free will in cata?
My statement said that she has justification, revenge is an honest even if it is emotional response. She’s suffered trauma, she’s done awful things.
Yes.
Koiltra’s friendship with Thassarian was prolonging the Battle of Andorhal, the Forsaken were wasting rescources so that the Alliance would seem like they were gaining ground. Koiltra cared more about retaining his friendship than winning a war. Sylvanas has every valid reason to hate the Alliance. She has no reason to show the Alliance any mercy.
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So his free will which is an important facet of forsaken ideology is unimportant? Better to be a mindless slave instead of just replacing him with someone who isn’t friends with Thassarian.
it’s not more important that peoples lives, no.
Same with Derrick. If Derrick succeeded to destroy Jaina, her attack on Zandalar could have been stopped. It’s “the Trolley Problem”, one life is save many is more ethical.
Same with Teldrassil. 1000 lives to stop the Jailer, would that be justified?
Yes, it would.
It should be pretty important if the character (Syl) makes such a big deal about choice and free will in the forsaken starting zone at cata, like I said why not just replace him with someone like Belmont. It’s a hypocritical stance to take for her in that part, especially since like Syl Koltira does the same as her in defense of their homeland.
yes but if you have been listening to her at all in Shadowlands she says they have no free will.
and you say that you trust Arthas, that Arthas is justified? the Shade of Arthas said the exact same thing in Legion. Free will to the dead is an illusion. ALL undead are under the Jailer’s dominion, the LK, The Scourge, The Ebon Blade, even Sylvanas and the Forsaken.
What makes Bolvar and Sylvanas different? Bolvar’s attacking the Jailer head on, Sylvanas is using subterfuge to make the Jailer think she’s on his side… that’s “In character”
She wants to create a system based on justice, I believe in her justice, I believe she deserves her due.
Which really isn’t a hard concept to grasp because when Arthas was thrown into the Maw that was not “justice” correct? you believe Arthas deserves better?
I believe Sylvanas deserves better too.
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Actually what he said was “Memory of Arthas says: You believe that you are in control, that your will is your own…
Memory of Arthas says: Yet you do as He commands.
Memory of Arthas says: You exist by His whim alone.
Memory of Arthas says: You imagine yourself to be free, but you will always be His instrument…”
Which could very well be about the jailer, or about Bolvar who had commanded you to do many things to stop the Legion. Also DK Arthas has very veeeeery little to no justification for his actions besides being a pawn, yet still inexcusable.
I wouldn’t mind if both Arthas and Syl got redemptive arcs yet seems unlikely for my boy Arthas, more than likely for Syl however.
Also that is quite the assumption to make of her to be honest, has she been showing doubt in her cause? Sure, not typically in character for her but she has shown times of doubt. Yet if she was “just manipulating the jailer.” Why the spite of doubt? Why the hesitancy on turning Anduin? If she was truly manipulating him then she should’ve been more than willing to just strip Anduin of his free will, as we discussed she’s been more than willing to do it before.
I wrote a whole meta on this. I won’t share here though.
Oooooh interesting lol, also I try not to be the guy who talks smack to someone for killing a character I’m not a fan of.
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yes, when Anduin tried to reason with her in the Sylvanas’s choice cinematic she hesitates, he points out that the reason she hesitates is because deep down she’s still the Ranger-General. She’s still that noble hero. Sylvanas seems like she’s convinced herself that the only way to get justice is through the Jailer and his plans.
Justice for Sylvanas is loaded, she’s not looking for justice for the Banshee Queen. She wants justice for the Ranger-General. The one that died defending her homeland, the one who died a hero who deserved a good afterlife, but as soon as Arthas brought her back, as soon as her soul was tainted by Frostmourne it was changed forever. when she jumped off ICC in EoN she was trying to get back to the flash of an happy afterlife, reunited with her family, but she woke up in the Maw.
I think that’s the justice she’s seeking. Justice for a choice she NEVER made that caused her to lose out on the afterlife she deserved.
She looks at the Jailer in the new cinematic with anger and contempt, she knows Arthas was insignificant, the Jailer was the real reason she became who she became.
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The theory I have on that is the Val’kyr that came and struck their bargain with Syl in the maw, where tasked with throwing her into the maw and then sent there by the jailer to draw her into the pact she currently holds.
The deal was far too good on her end to be true to be honest, and the Valkyr where willing to take her place in hell for no real good reason? Super suspect.
that’s certainly possible with a retcon.
But I always believed that the Nine choose Sylvanas because of kinship. They saw someone worthy just like them. They were once Vrykul. Its all about worthiness. They chose her worthy to have the power to rule over Life and Death, to be a Goddess of creation and destruction. It says so in the text. Sylvanas embodies not only a warrior spirit but a Valkyra’s spirit.
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I’ll disagree with you on that, it would be unworthy of a warrior to throw oneself to their doom. And since their culture mirrors that of our actual real life Vikings, a warrior who does not die in battle weapon in hand are unworthy and deserving of Hel.